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Old March 10th, 2010, 03:35 PM   #501
schmidt
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Yes, and about that I also agree that it needs to involve Federal funds. It's not only in Germany, but here in Brazil, for example, in São Paulo State they do the same to the capital's subway system, which is funded by the State Government.

But I can understand the Germans' feelings about Berlin. In the State I live in Brazil it happens the same: Florianópolis, the capital, is a tourist place with no factories or anything and they get most infrastructure investments. I feel bad about that since my city has a much larger GDP per capita than the capital and doesn't get half of the State investment in the capital.

It's a quite delicate issue, but one thing is clear: if the U5 isn't extended until Brandenburger Tor, the U55 is gonna be a waste of money!
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:54 AM   #502
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And how do you think Canberra is financed? The entire city was built from scratch with federal money when they could have used an existing city. And today, it is entirely financed by federal reserves. Afterall, it doesn't have it's own state either.
They were using an existing city; Melbourne. We were national capital for the first 26 years of federated Australia after 1901 - it moved to Canberra in 1927.

Melbourne would have served as a fantastic political capital of Australia. Sydney would still be the international 'face'. It would have been a perfect arrangement, but alas, reality. Even though Canberra has been capital for over 80 years, many national institutions are still based in Melbourne.


As for the topic at hand -- Berlin. I don't think anyone can argue that there are other German cities that are more important in terms of $$, but Berlin is the cultural and political heart of the country. Alot of the troubles Berlin is in today is because it bore the brunt of post war Germany, and indeed the entire Cold War.

If Munich had been divided like Berlin had been it would be in the same situation. I'm not German, but I still get very irritated by this common critcism of Berlin. It deserves the funding---it faced consequences that other parts of Germany didn't - this has obviously stunted its economic growth. It's never going to be a money making machine like Munich or Stuttgart, its a public sector hub, hence the need fo funding.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 08:07 PM   #503
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Berlin is the cultural and political heart of the country.
Not from a South-German perspective

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It's never going to be a money making machine like Munich or Stuttgart, its a public sector hub, hence the need fo funding.
Stuttgart per se isn't a "money making machine" either - the money, and most of the population, sits in the small towns surrounding Stuttgart. Stuttgart is a regional public hub just as well.
Unlike West-German towns Berlin swallowed its surrounding area in the 1920s though (except Hamburg, which did the same).

As for Berlin being the capital, it was a relatively tight race back in 1991 btw. 338 votes for Berlin, 320 votes against. Among West-German representatives, it was 291:214 in favour of staying in Bonn.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #504
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If there was a god, I would thank him that it did go back to Berlin. Bonn was one of the most boring national capitals on the planet. Sure, it's a pleasant enough town (or suburb of Cologne ;O) but as a national capital it just had no charisma.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 04:13 PM   #505
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If there was a god, I would thank him that it did go back to Berlin. Bonn was one of the most boring national capitals on the planet. Sure, it's a pleasant enough town (or suburb of Cologne ;O) but as a national capital it just had no charisma.
This was one of the reasons for the first federal chancellor Adenauer to fight for Bonn as the ferderal capital - instead of Frankfurt. The other reason was the short distance to Bonn from his home in Rhöndorf
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #506
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Wow, this thread has discussed just about all the standard discussions of German politics, and now that the actual construction started, noone is interested.
Construction started yesterday with the traditional first shovel done by the mayor, conveniently right in front of the Town Hall. To summarize news reports: the first year will pass with archaeologic excavations and setting up the construction machinery. The big hole will be on MarxEngels Forum, and Marx and Engels will be evicted to somewhere on the edge of the square. Digging will then pick up pace, including a one year big hole on Unter den Linden/Friedrichstrasse in 2012. Here the tunnel acutally becomes deep (27 meters), as it passes under U6. The first station, Berliner Rathaus, could be inaugurated in 2015, as the tunnel from Alex to there actually exists since the 1930s and only the station must be built, while Museumsinsel and Unter den Linde should be augurated in 2017.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:28 PM   #507
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What a effort! 5 years for just one station excluding already built tunnel!
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Old April 18th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #508
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I think the construction hole on MarxEngelsForum prevents an earlier completion of the station. Also, the tunnel will extend under the still to built HumboldtForum, and the tunnel can only be built once at least the supporting base of that building is completed. However, the main reason seems to be that the line is not really wanted and thus the municipality government is allotting only a few pennies each year of its budget to the crucial works such as installing rails, signals, etc. It is what I would do if I had to complete a line I personally find a failed investment.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 04:27 PM   #509
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In how far can the single metro line connecting the Hauptbahnhof with Berlin Mitte be a "failed investment"? I mean unless you build a meaningless 3 stops island subway.
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 12:57 AM   #510
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Is the S-Bahn going to be running 8-car Vollzüge again, or are the 6-car trains the new normal now?
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Old April 22nd, 2010, 09:37 AM   #511
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Even with the current troubles the Berlin S-Bahn, along with the U-Bahn, is my favourite urban transportation network.

I like the East German class 485 trains the best...big, rough, noisy and the closest living relative to the old BR 477 trains (RIP).

The Bombardier/Adtranz BR 480 and 481 trains are quiet and modern but they don't have as much character.

I'm weird that way...I like my urbanity a little rough around the edges.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 02:33 PM   #512
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Looks nice.
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Old April 26th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #513
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Go -censored- yourself.

Some mod please throw this guy out.
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Old April 29th, 2010, 01:00 PM   #514
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There's an interesting book on the history and projects of line U5 (incl. U55), co-written by the same guy who is the webmaster of Urbanrail.net.
Never thought you could fill 112 pages with information on one metro line
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Old June 27th, 2010, 10:20 AM   #515
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Cool idea.

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Old September 27th, 2010, 03:51 PM   #516
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Berlin U-Bahn and S-Bahn

Hallo to all friends to Berlin Rail system
I am wondering how many outsiders discussing on Berlin - so I will write in English.
I had just been in Berlin last week. And wondering to see the S-Bahn to the fair ground running during the day in 10 min. intervall with 8-car trains. not sure if this was only for the InnoTrans fair. But other lines seems to run in their original frequency even not with full train length. So my impression was it is better than reported in the news papers!

U-Bahn Extension: Berlin is the German Capital - but working with extensions with a provincial small township! haves a big city budged, but no one knows where all it goes! From the big plannings published 15 years ago - only line 5 is coming during this decade.
there are some interesting in-house publication showing artists impressions on station design- but not on their web site:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/3905/...iterungen.html

Money goes in building elevators - not only there - costing much but only some effect. we do not have so many wheel-chair drivers to use them! But some more are nessessary because the old stations mostly have only stairs.
by building such - there is no money for new extensions --even there is a astronomic high cost.
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Old September 28th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #517
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^ Elevators won't buy you any new lines. Compare the cost of one km U-Bahn to how many elevtors you'd get for the same amount of money.

Besides, it's actually a sign of civilization to enable anyone to use the U-Bahn - other than other metro systems worldwide that lack elevators, Berlin has hardly any escalators, meaning you've got to climb the stairs yourself. Thus, the elevators do not only easen live for people in wheelchairs but for anyone who has a problem with stairs. Be it someone with a broken leg and crutches or old people.
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Old September 28th, 2010, 09:46 PM   #518
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I was dreading using the S bahn on my recent visit to Berlin (August) because of the problems, but actually it was working fine - indeed it's one hell of a network.

U-55 is a truly sad little line as it is though, I had a go on it out of interest but it's hardly worth the effort! But the whole route will be well worth having, indeed it's amazing a line along Unterdenlinden wasn't built years ago.

I was last in Berlin in 1996 and it's changed a lot, especially the transport network, it's a real joy to travel around the place now. One moan though, why don't the U and S bahn lines at Potsdammer Platz actually connect in one station complex? All that building work yet you still have to come tot he surface to change between the two.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 07:34 PM   #519
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My main gripe when I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago was the lack of signage and information. So many stations I went to had no network map. Nothing. Many had very poor signs giving information onto what platform you should go to for connections to the city - often they just named the end station of the line, and you need to look at the map to see if that is the correct line say for Potsdamerplatz - and then there was no map.

There were also stations which gave no indication of when the next train was coming, quite poor really.

And thirdly, when lines are out of service like large sections of the U2, none of the maps on the trains or stations (that did exist) even hinted on this. I got on an S-bahn at the Hauptbahnhof to Alexanderplatz and then changed to the U2 to head north. Nothing told me the U2 stopped two stations away because the rest of the line was being rebuilt until we were kicked off the train. In other cities, they would have stickers on the maps, or new maps on every train carriage and station that showed the stretches of lines or stations closed for renovation.

There are some lovely stations and lines on the Berlin network, and it is quite large, but I do feel it has deteriorated quite a bit in the last few years. I can see where they are doing renovations, but they also need to take care of the existing open network.
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Old September 29th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #520
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And thirdly, when lines are out of service like large sections of the U2, none of the maps on the trains or stations (that did exist) even hinted on this.
I had what can only be described as a surreal experience on U line 1. I got on at Kottbusser Tor and the destination info in the train told me it was going to Uhlandstr - the west end of the line. I had intended to go to Glesidreieck to change to line 2.

For various complicated reasons I got off early at Hallesches Tor. As it was a Sunday and a nice day I decided to walk tot he next station, Mockern Bruke. As I got near the station the next train came along. So, having decided I'd missed it I decided to carry on following the line on foot. I did notice that no-one left the station from that train and, oddly, the train didn't seem to drive on along the track.

The line crosses the river and goes on a viaduct between the buildings, except is doesn't - the viaduct isn't there and the line comes to an abrupt end.

Confused I walked on and approached Glesidreieck station, when I saw a train apparently coming along the viaduct from the direction of Mockern Bruke. Now I was really confused and began to doubt the fact that I'd seen the lack of viaduct.

When I got to the station on line two it was clear that the train I'd seen approaching the station was on line 2, not line 1 and line 1 was indeed closed here.

I guess the train I'd heard arrive at Mockern Bruke unloaded all its passengers who then made their way to line 7 which crosses there, which is why they didn't come out of the station.

But yeah, some kind of "Line closed for repair" notice on the route maps would have been nice.

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