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Old April 22nd, 2012, 11:39 AM   #601
Sopomon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Buses are technologically inferior anywhere in the World for being totally dependable on human input to accelerate, brake and - especially - judge safety in turns, crossings etc. Its and inherent inferiority of all internal combustion, steering-parallel-axes-on-tires road vehicles. Mind you, I love cars and have used car extensively in Berlin, despite the high prices of parking... but when I use a car I have a seat belt all the time, and airbags and other stuff should something occur while bus passengers are not restrained at all...

So even in Berlin buses are inferior by design. They have safety features that are akin to those of trams of pre WW-2, if so (they still don't have guidance to prevent lateral acceleration).

Although for reasons I wouldn't choose, he's right. Buses ought to be a last resort, where any other option has no chance of making money. They always get caught up in traffic and are so slow.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 07:15 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by nanar View Post
The main error of Suburbanist is that - in Berlin - buses are NOT an "inferior 3rd World form of transportation",
but a very good addition to segregated transit services.
And so are bikes, which are allowed in S-Bahn, subway and streetcars.

more, there is no more than 600 meters between the museums and Hackescher Markt S-bahn station
Buses are a good addition to rail transportation, not a replacement at possible main corridors. We are not speaking here about some random feeder route but a potential additional corridor through the very centre of the city. That is why an additional subway line can be very well justified even if its not more than 600 meters to the S-Bahn.

The S-Bahn main corridor in Vienna has a station which is not further away than 1 km from the U1 station right below the cathedral as well and the 2 stations northwards are even closer to the S-Bahn corridor (the 3rd is actually just below an S-Bahn station). No one would question the legitimacy of the U1 nonetheless.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 07:32 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

Let's also remember that the U5 station x S-Bahn station transfer at Alexanderplatz is clearly a bad one: you need to exit the station, walk over a plaza in open air for almost 200m to get from one to another. No direct under/overground connection between the two, iff what I saw in a map is correct.
That's wrong. You don't have to exit the station in order to change from U-Bahn (no matter which of the three lines) to S-Bahn. Even from the U2 platform which is farthest away from the train station you can just walk there underground through some sort of small shopping arcade which is integrated in the subway station complex.

Maybe you thought of Potsdamer Platz subway and train station: there you have to cross a street in open air to get from subway line U2 to the S-Bahn which is indeed kinda annoying.
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 11:03 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by ScHoKoApFeL View Post
Maybe you thought of Potsdamer Platz subway and train station: there you have to cross a street in open air to get from subway line U2 to the S-Bahn which is indeed kinda annoying.
Yeah, I think that's where he/she meant. When I used that connection it was chucking it down and I got soaked, so not I'm impressed with that little bit of the Berlin system!

But regards the U5 line, it seems an obvious route to provide to me. It's still the case that there is a hole in the very centre of Berlin around the Brandenburg tor, not as bad as it used to be of course, but it still has an almost disconnected feel, or it did to me last time I was there anyway. It should be the very heart of the city, but getting there is still something of a trek. The S bahn does serve the Tor, but that doesn't really connect city centre places, either Alex or West.

Thus speaks a tourist, not a local of course.

Derek
Edited to add - I agree, buses are crap. A mode of transport to be avoided unless there really isn't an alternative. I'll walk miles rather than use a bus.

Last edited by nr23Derek; April 22nd, 2012 at 11:04 PM. Reason: added a comment
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 01:17 PM   #605
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Wow, this discussion has created steam. First, it is a bit of an illusion to see the average MP come in by train to Hauptbahnhof and head straight for his or her office by subway. There are obviously a couple 1000 people working in or for the parliament and they need to be connected to public transport, but not necessarily directly to Hauptbahnhof as they will by majority live in Berlin.
Second, it is logicial to have parallel S- or U-Bahn lines in the city center, such as in Vienna, if they then branch out in different directions. However, if one line terminates in the center and people wishing to travel further will have to change anyways (a passenger of U55 heading West beyond Hauptbahnhof), then there is no point. So I repeat, continue U55 at least until Alt-Moabit, preferably until Jungfernheide, and you will have done a job beyond catering to some seasonal tourists.
Third, the busses. Here I refer to path dependency. In postwar boom years, Paris decided to intensify the metro net and make busses in downtown unnecessary. London tried something similar. Berlin unfortunately did not. In East Berlin, the tram provided basic service while the SBahn provided a net for mediate to long distance commutes. Strangely enough though, they also destroyed tram lines in most of downtown Mitte. In West Berlin, tramlines were destroyed and the SBahn boycotted. UBahns were much developped, but never made up to the kind of grid of Paris. Therefore busses unfortunately remained a major part of infrastructure. While obviously this is not optimal, it is hard to change in these days when municpalities and especially Berlin has little money of its own to invest into changing these earlier decisions.
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Old April 23rd, 2012, 10:03 PM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Second, it is logicial to have parallel S- or U-Bahn lines in the city center, such as in Vienna, if they then branch out in different directions. However, if one line terminates in the center and people wishing to travel further will have to change anyways (a passenger of U55 heading West beyond Hauptbahnhof), then there is no point. So I repeat, continue U55 at least until Alt-Moabit, preferably until Jungfernheide, and you will have done a job beyond catering to some seasonal tourists.
This is an argument for extending the U55 westwards while connecting it to the U5 as well. The S-Bahn is certainly well used, an U55 at Unter den Linden would be attractive for more than just tourists I would suppose. All those people who work there alone and then there are probably also places there not exclusively frequented by tourists. If all those extensions were realized the central part would not only connect both sides to the centre but establish a direct connection between west and east in this location as well.

The U1 in Vienna is currently going only 3 stations beyond the future Hauptbahnhof where it crosses the S-Bahn main corridor south of the centre. Granted, the line is currently being extend further to the south.

Quote:
Third, the busses. Here I refer to path dependency. In postwar boom years, Paris decided to intensify the metro net and make busses in downtown unnecessary. London tried something similar. Berlin unfortunately did not. In East Berlin, the tram provided basic service while the SBahn provided a net for mediate to long distance commutes. Strangely enough though, they also destroyed tram lines in most of downtown Mitte. In West Berlin, tramlines were destroyed and the SBahn boycotted. UBahns were much developped, but never made up to the kind of grid of Paris. Therefore busses unfortunately remained a major part of infrastructure. While obviously this is not optimal, it is hard to change in these days when municpalities and especially Berlin has little money of its own to invest into changing these earlier decisions.
So we boil down to the real arguments: money. Yes it is well known that Berlin is bankrupt, but isn't that kind of sad that the German capital can't make the investments which would actually make perfect sense for an adequate infrastructure?

I think Vienna had not such a totally different situation it started with. A "Stadtbahn" and an S-Bahn that missed the very centre but drove somewhat "around it" and lots of trams. Then the started the U-Bahn program in the 70's. And thats were things started to develope differently. The Stadtbahn was integrated or transformed into the U-Bahn network, together with entirely new tangential lines. While some tram lines, were replaced that way and others shut down, the largest part of the network was kept intact. Today, finally, the city begins to extend the tram network again rather than continuing the cannibalizing of it.

Maybe tram lines would deserve a revival in Berlin as well? On the potential U5 corridor however an U-Bahn makes sense. The Hauptbahnhof is not only a intercity-hub. It also is an S-Bahn hub in all directions.
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Old April 24th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Second, it is logicial to have parallel S- or U-Bahn lines in the city center, such as in Vienna, if they then branch out in different directions.
I'll try to add some steam No one has pointed out that, with the completion of the Hönow‎-Hbf U5, that line will cross the S5 path four times

An interesting fact is that the U5 will be the first segregated railway to run across Alt-Berlin, since both the Stadtbahn and the U2 were built along its ancient walls' ruote.
Would have been nice to have a "Rathaus Cölln" station

More seriously, the "U5 to Jungfernheide" should not be too hard and expensive to build, since usually the higher costs are related to creating stations (especially in case of interchanges): the main interchange stations are already built (Turmstr. and Jungfernheide itself). But I actually don't remember if Turmstr. "ghost station" is N-S or W-E oriented.


Speaking of parallel new infrastractures, it would be interesting to see a development of the tram lines on Leipziger Str., parallel to the U2 but with high potential of success.
Speaking of bad interchanges, U2 at Potsdamer Platz is a well known bad spot, but I don't find comfortable U2 at Alexanderplatz as well. Yes, you don't have to walk in the rain, but it's such a long walk underground that I can hardly call it a good interchange. I often found more interesting to change at other S-Bahnhöfe to some of the tram lines crossing the path of the U2.

And speaking again of S21, I found this interesting picture:
image hosted on flickr


Here: http://www.isarsteve.de/?p=937

The author is thinking about what the possible "S21" services will actually be, still the most clueless project in modern history


I'm wondering why, given the emptiness of the N-S tunnel, they didn't keep the S21 service seen in 2006. That filled a gap!
Maybe to be operated with the Talent 2, if they'll ever be ready...

In the next episode: what the hell is going to happen to the Aussenring services
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Old April 24th, 2012, 12:26 PM   #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Maybe tram lines would deserve a revival in Berlin as well? On the potential U5 corridor however an U-Bahn makes sense. The Hauptbahnhof is not only a intercity-hub. It also is an S-Bahn hub in all directions.
With all due respect, Vienna has not seen as many breaks in its history as has Berlin. Splitting the city into an American sattelite which under the influence of Fordism cannibalized its trams totally and a Soviet one and dividing most rail and tram lines at the sector borders was nto exactly productive for rail integration. Roads were in most cases simply reopened immediately in 1990, the rail connections took much longer.
Anyways, the federal state poored big money into reviving the rather disconnected and often closed parts of the S-Bahn, of combining the rather disjointed regional lines into the RegionalExpress system, so today suburbs and the mid-size towns of Brandenburg are much better integrated into central Berlin than before (however sideroutes in Brandenburg were to a large extent closed down). By comparison, U-Bahn and tram extensions have been minimal. There were huge plans to reintegrate West Berlin into the tram network, but 20 years after reunification, there have only been 5 tram extensions, and only one of them so far has reached West Berlin soil (S Bornholmer Straße down to Virchow-Krankenhaus is now a succesful line serving northern Wedding; the extensions in the East are mostly small bits meant to better integrate existing lines with the major hub Sbahn stations - Mollstraße - Alexanderplatz - Hackescher Markt; Prenzlauer Allee - Alexanderplatz; Eberswalder Straße - Nordbahnhof; 2 stations in Adlershof. Now the second extension into the West is under the way finally (Naturkundemuseum - Hauptbahnhof). All in all, this is far from the big revival of trams envisioned in the 90s, especially considering that their construction is so much cheaper and easier than metros.
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Old April 24th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #609
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I was not aware of these tram extensions and while they are much less than what was planned in the 90s I think its great that at least something has been done about it.

Vienna was separated into 4 zones as well, for 10 years. Sure, no wall was built and the time span was much shorter but it was not nothing either. The 3 western zones were actually handled with care but the Russian zone was pretty much robbed of any industrial asset one could load on a train and move to Russia.
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Old May 4th, 2012, 02:46 AM   #610
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Interesting times ahead for the S-Bahn!

The Senate is determined to put parts of the network up for tender, which means that an operator other than Deutsche Bahn might run train services on the S-Bahn starting from the end of 2017. However, DB CEO Rudiger Grube calls this a laughing stock. Furthermore, it looks like the Senate of Berlin will finance and acquire new trains needed for operations as some of the current rolling stock reaches the end if its life. However, these trains haven't been ordered yet and given the lengthy procedures of acquiring rolling stock (in the public sector) this might jeopardize the planning.

The routes that will be tendered are the Ringbahn (ring line) and the southeastern part of the network. So far, I know about three parties that are interested in these lines:
1) Deutsche Bahn
2) Keolis (a subsidiary of French national railway SNCF)
3) Abellio (a subsidiary of Dutch national railway NS), but I've been unable to confirm this

Berlin could've opted for renewing the contract with Deutsche Bahn, but opted not to do so, for a number of reasons:
1) The dramatic performance of the S-Bahn in 2009 and 2010, where at some point 75% of the rolling stock was prohibited from operating in revenue services due to serious technical and safety faults.
2) Criticism regarding S-Bahn Berlin GmbH's income: the current operator receives about € 18 per train kilometer. Politicians consider this to be way too much and think € 5 per train km should be the maximum.

Berlin has not opted to put the entire S-Bahn network up for tender, as the city fears that only Deutsche Bahn is capable of making an offer for the big network.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 12:28 AM   #611
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Question for anyone that might know:

I'm going to Berlin in early June and was wondering if it's feasible to take 2 days to quickly see Leipzig and Dresden.

I was thinking of taking an early morning train to Leipzig, touring the main sights and then taking an evening train to Dresden, staying the night in Dresden, touring the main sights there the next day, and then taking an evening train back to Berlin.

Is this crazy? How could I do this the cheapest with trains?
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Old May 8th, 2012, 01:34 AM   #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl View Post
Question for anyone that might know:

I'm going to Berlin in early June and was wondering if it's feasible to take 2 days to quickly see Leipzig and Dresden.

I was thinking of taking an early morning train to Leipzig, touring the main sights and then taking an evening train to Dresden, staying the night in Dresden, touring the main sights there the next day, and then taking an evening train back to Berlin.

Is this crazy? How could I do this the cheapest with trains?

I've never been in Leipzig but just a few hours for Dresden will be a hard job
If you book the ICE tickets very soon, you can get the special offer for 24 € on the morning train (06:52)
It should be possible to book and print your DB tickets at home, on the right side of the DB hp http://www.bahn.de/i/view/USA/en/index.shtml is a guided tour to book an online ticket!
From Leipzig to Dresden the special offer is 19 €!

Good luck!
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Old May 8th, 2012, 02:24 AM   #613
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I think half a day can be enough for a quick view of Lepizig. Maybe some tram trips will help looking around the city.

I'd dedicate a full day to Dresden, at least. And I think the city center must be seen in the evening, as well as some museums must be seen (the transports museum was good).

Berlin - Leipzig is served by Interconnex/Veolia also.
http://www.interconnex.com/fahrplan/...cht/index.html

I tried it once, spared some €, service was good, same comfort as DB Regio average coach.
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Old May 8th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl View Post
Question for anyone that might know:

I'm going to Berlin in early June and was wondering if it's feasible to take 2 days to quickly see Leipzig and Dresden.

I was thinking of taking an early morning train to Leipzig, touring the main sights and then taking an evening train to Dresden, staying the night in Dresden, touring the main sights there the next day, and then taking an evening train back to Berlin.

Is this crazy? How could I do this the cheapest with trains?
It is crazy indeed. A day in Leipzig is one day too much and a day in Dresden is at least one day too little. I'd rather go two days to Dresden or a day to Weimar instead of Leipzig. Leipzig isn't worth the hassle of travelling there.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #615
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A day in Leipzig is one day too much... Leipzig isn't worth the hassle of travelling there.
You're not being very nice to Leipzig. I don't think a 24 Euro, 1 hour train ride on an ICE train, to a fantastic train station that is right in the city center (walking distance to the pedestrianized Old Town) is much of a hassle.

From pictures I've seen, Leipzig looks quite nice. I just wanna walk around and have lunch at Auerbachs Keller.
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Old May 9th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #616
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Thanks you guys for the comments/suggestions!
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Old May 9th, 2012, 07:39 PM   #617
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Quote:
Berlin S-Bahn train fleet restoration makes progress
Wednesday, May 09, 2012

The long-suffering passengers of the Berlin S-Bahn, who have been plagued by years of train disruption and cancellation caused by poor train maintenance, can at last look forward to a more reliable service and the restoration of the full timetable. "We have cleaned up the S-Bahn company, we have created new structures, and we have overhauled the technology," says Dr Rüdiger Grube, CEO of German Rail (DB), the parent company of S-Bahn Berlin. "It was right to turn over every stone and not to lose heart to solve the problems permanently. Our passengers will benefit from the result."

In December S-Bahn Berlin completed the replacement of 4000 wheelsets on its trains, and in February finished a project to modify more than 2500 traction motors which will protect them against low temperatures and moisture. A new automatic method of replenishing sand boxes has been developed in cooperation with manufacturers.

This month, the need to conduct extensive manual tests on class 481 trains came to an end, and modification of class 480 trains is now underway. S-Bahn Berlin spent Euros 106.7m on maintenance in 2011, and on May 4 Grube launched a Euros 15m project to reopen Friedrichsfelde workshops, which is due to be completed in 2016.

Increased train availability will enable S-Bahn Berlin to reintroduce services on Line S85 linking Waidmannslust and Grunau on June 4. However, the planned extension of lines S9 and S45 to the new Berlin Brandenburg Airport on June 3 has been postponed due to the announcement yesterday that the opening of the airport has been delayed until "after the summer holiday period" due to problems commissioning fire detection equipment.
Source: International Rail Journal
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Old May 10th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #618
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The S-Bahn still has the problem of lack of engineers, leading to some train cancellations. Also pressure groups claim that by 2017, when some of the mid-age S-Bahn are supposed to be scrapped, another lack of trains will arise if the municipality does not put out a tender for new wagons now. Finally, the municipality will actually put up operations of part of the S-Bahn network for tender. Critics had demanded such a step after the bad performance of the state-owned DB-subcompany S-Bahn in recent years. However, while it is fairly common for smaller companies to oeprate regional lines, the Berlin S-Bahn network and density of trains is far too much for any other existing company to handle except DB. Splitting the network into several sections is probably the only way any other bidder stands a chance, but it will make for even more of an operation mess in my humble opinion.
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Old July 12th, 2012, 01:37 PM   #619
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Hi I have a question about U-Bahn network, when the city was still splitted in Berlin West and Berlin East.



In this map I noticed that the stations passing under East Berlin area were closed, excepted of Friedrichstraße, it is correct or this map is wrong? And if was in this way, why that station was open since it passed under East Berlin Area?
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Old July 12th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #620
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Friedrichstraße was used by Westerns as an interchange to the S-Bahn trains running on the western part of the Stadtbahn (not depicted on that map). The road accesses to the U-Bahnhof were sealed off; the only possible connection was to the western tracks in the S-Bahnhof.

Despite lying in East Berlin territory, the Lehrter Bhf - Friedrichstr. part of the Stadtbahn was actually part of the West Berlin rail services, Friedrichstr. being the frontier station. The track layout was different from today's one: 4 tracks were dedicated to S-Bahn (each couple being separated from the other) and 2 tracks to those few main railway services crossing the frontier.
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