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Old June 22nd, 2013, 09:58 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
The only data I can find is that the average of the whole tramnetz is 19 km/h, which is not bad:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17106/name/Tram.html
Tram is really around 19 km/h, Bus is even slightly faster with 19,4 km/h or something like that. The reason for this are the included express-busses with an average speed of 24 km/h. That means the X-Bus is thought for areas not served by S- or U-Bahn in order to transport people qiuckly.

U-Bahn has an average commercial speed of only 31-32km/h. The old lines constructed between 1902 and 1930 have many curves and small distances between stations (like Paris). Fastest line is U5 with 33,5 km/h, newer sections from the 70s and 80s like U7 between Grenzallee and Rudow and Jungfernheide - Rathaus Spandau can reach 37 km/h as commercial speed.

The concept of Metrobusses/trams in german cities like Hamburg, Munich or Berlin is often misleading for people from outside Germany. In Berlin it just means that a M-line has a 24/7 service, in an ideal case with 10-Minute-headway (but not at night). At least most time of the day you catch the bus every 10 minutes and at night the line is also served. BVG makes 80 % of transport with U-Bahn,.Metrotram and Metrobus. So busses on that line are the most modern ones of the fleet of cause.


Kind regards
Alex
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 10:07 PM   #642
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Friedrichstraße was used by Westerns as an interchange to the S-Bahn trains running on the western part of the Stadtbahn (not depicted on that map). The road accesses to the U-Bahnhof were sealed off; the only possible connection was to the western tracks in the S-Bahnhof.
Yes I really remember the strange feeling of this station, but you got used to it. There were so called intershops, offering duty-free alcohol/cigarettes for Westerns and so the publicity was a little bit special. Custom often made control when you arrived back in West-Berlin.

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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:39 PM   #643
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I have some questions:

- what is the track arrangement between U-Bahn stations Nollendhorfplatz and Wittenbergplatz? Could they re-shuffle/truncate services there if they wanted, for instance, routing U3 to Adernauerplatz or routing U4 to Pankow?

- does BVG have plans to build more direct physical access between stations, especially between the Ring S-Bahn station and the U-Bahn stations when lines meet?

- some U-Bahn lines could be easily extended to the nearest S-Bahn line increasing connectivity. Do they have plane extending the U-Bahn from Adernauerplatz to S-Bahn Halensee, or from Krumme Lank to S-Bahn Mexikoplatz.

- do they have plans to upgrade some of the former East Berlin tram lines to elevated or underground metro? The line along route M17 seems a good candidate: plenty of blocks around, but not so close that an elevated line would be detrimental.
Try to answer your questions:

1) Track arrangement between Wittenbergplatz and Nollendorfplatz is done for the following connections:
Uhlandstraße/Krumme Lanke to Warschauer Straße additionally Krumme Lanke to Pankow (as it is done in the early morning because some U2-trains are stored on U3). Furthermore Warschauer Straße/Pankow could serve to Uhlandstraße and Krumme Lanke but not every connection-mode without level-crossings. U4 was connected to Warschauer Straße for long time. The place for tracks is there but it would have to be rebuild and it would make turning U3 at Nollendorfplatz difficult. Also U4 platforms accomodate for max. 6-car-train (perhaps even only 4 at Innsbrucker Platz). So there is no basical need to head for additional shorter trains on the elevated section of U1.

2) Yes they do, but please keep in mind that not only BVG, also DBAG has to play a role in this. Regarding other cities transfer-time and way between metro and urbanrail is not that bad, I would say often ideal. Missing things are the direct passage at Frankfurter Allee (planned since 1930 and postponed several times) and a closer stop of U1 Warschauer Straße at the S-Bahnstation. The latter one will be build new and there is space foreseen for new U1-platforms. But I suppose there will be a new bridge for passengers, not more. All other stations mainly have direct physical access, often only two flights of stairs between platforms.

3) Extensions to Adenauerplatz and Mexikoplatz have been under study 10 years ago. Adenauerplatz would only make sense if you can substitute busses, so the terminus must be Halensee as you mentioned. Expensive and not that urgent. At least Aenauerplatz U7 has the complete lower level for U1 already finished. U3 to Mexikoplatz is just 800 m of new tunnel with easy ground conditions. And U3 could need some passengers more. They found out, that this extension would not cure the problem of having less passengers on U3 than on other lines. Let´s say it would be useful but not necessary in terms of passenger numbers.

4) Berlin-state has fiscal doubts of about 60.000.000.000 (!) Euros. The reasons and the following problems of that have been the same like nowadays in Greece, Spain, Portugal. (too friendly relationship between banking and politics). Maybe this is not much known outside Germany. So there are no plans to extend anything besides U5 and S21 in Berlin, which are mainly financed by german gouvernment. In my personal view M4 tramway to Weißensee comes to it´s limits, slowly but consistent. It runs with 46 m long trams every 3-4 Minutes during rush-hours. Plans for U-Bahn? Yes since 100 Years already The new signal-box for U5-extension will be put into one already finished tunnel for the Weißensee-line at Alexanderplatz, it seems no one takes this line into account seriously.

M17 was planned as a subway in East-Berlin back in the early 70s between Tierpark and Weißensee. U5-Tierpark-U-Bahnstation has some features for beeing a transfer-station. Now it should be something like a power-tram with seperated tracks, what we call Stadtbahn nowadays in Germany. Next step will be a better transfer at Schöneweide S-Bahnstation. I think they should run longer trams there if possible.

Kind regards
Alex

Last edited by tunnel owl; June 22nd, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:48 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have some questions:

- what is the track arrangement between U-Bahn stations Nollendhorfplatz and Wittenbergplatz? Could they re-shuffle/truncate services there if they wanted, for instance, routing U3 to Adernauerplatz or routing U4 to Pankow?

- does BVG have plans to build more direct physical access between stations, especially between the Ring S-Bahn station and the U-Bahn stations when lines meet?

- some U-Bahn lines could be easily extended to the nearest S-Bahn line increasing connectivity. Do they have plane extending the U-Bahn from Adernauerplatz to S-Bahn Halensee, or from Krumme Lank to S-Bahn Mexikoplatz.

- do they have plans to upgrade some of the former East Berlin tram lines to elevated or underground metro? The line along route M17 seems a good candidate: plenty of blocks around, but not so close that an elevated line would be detrimental.
Try to answer your questions:

1) Track arrangement between Wittenbergplatz and Nollendorfplatz is done for the following connections:
Uhlandstraße/Krumme Lanke to Warschauer Straße additionally Krumme Lanke to Pankow (as it is done in the early morning because some U2-trains are stored on U3). Furthermore Warschauer Straße/Pankow could serve to Uhlandstraße and Krumme Lanke but not every connection-mode without level-crossings. U4 was connected to Warschauer Straße for long time. The place for tracks is there but it would have to be rebuild and it would make turning U3 at Nollendorfplatz difficult. Also U4 platforms accomodate for max. 6-car-train (perhaps even only 4 at Innsbrucker Platz). So there is no basical need to head for additional shorter trains on the elevated section.

2) Yes they do, but please keep in mind that not only BVG, also DBAG has to play a role in this. Regarding other cities transfer-tme and way between metro and urbanrail is not that bad, I would say often ideal. Missing things are the direct passage at Frankfurter Allee (planned since 1930 and postponed several times) and a closer stop of U1 Warschauer Straße at the S-Bahnstation. The latter one will be build new and there is space foreseen for new U1-platforms. But I suppose there will be a new bridge for passengers, not more. All other stations mainly have direct physical access, often only two flights of stairs between platforms.

3) Extensions to Adenauerplatz and Mexikoplatz have been under study 10 years ago. Adenauerplatz would only make sense if yoiu can substitute busses, so the terminus must be Halensee as you mentioned. Expensive and not that urgent. At least Aenauerplatz U7 has the complete lower level for U1 already finished. U3 to Mexikoplatz is just 800 m of new tunnel with easy ground conditions. And U3 could need some passengers more. They found out, that this extension would not cure the problem of having less passengers on U3 than on other lines. Let´s say it would be useful but not necessary in terms of passenger numbers.

4) Berlin-state has fiscal doubts of about 60.000.000.000 (!) Euros. The reasons and the following problems of that have been the same like nowadays in Greece, Spain, Portugal. (too friendly relationship between banking and politics). Maybe this is not much known outside Germany. So there are no plans to extend anything besides U5 and S21 in Berlin, which are mainly financed by german gouvernment. Personal M4 tramway to Weißensee comes to it´s limits, slowly but consistent. It runs with 46 m long trams every 3-4 Minutes during rush-hours. Plans for U-Bahn? Yes since 100 Years already

M17 was planned as a subway in East-Berlin back in the early 70s between Tierpark and Weißensee. U5-Tierpark-U-Bahnstation has some features for beeing a transfer-station. Now it should be something like a power-tram with seperated tracks, what we call Stadtbahn nowadays in Germany. Next step will be a better transfer at Schöneweide S-Bahnstation. I think they should run longer trams there if possible.

Kind regards
Alex
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:52 AM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl
M17 was planned as a subway in East-Berlin back in the early 70s between Tierpark and Weißensee.
Sure?
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:58 AM   #646
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Thanks for your answers!

Apparently the only major project is the U5/U55 then. When it opens, will they close the Franzöischestraße station on U6?

What about the situation on Postdamer Platz? Why didn't they build a physical connection between the S-Bahn/regional train station with the U-Bahn? I bet they spent a lot of money there after reunification, wouldn't have been so difficult to excavate a tunnel.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:10 PM   #647
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Thanks for your answers!

Apparently the only major project is the U5/U55 then. When it opens, will they close the Franzöischestraße station on U6?

What about the situation on Postdamer Platz? Why didn't they build a physical connection between the S-Bahn/regional train station with the U-Bahn? I bet they spent a lot of money there after reunification, wouldn't have been so difficult to excavate a tunnel.
Ah, forgot this one, sorry. In fact there was a plan to connect U2 Potsdamer Platz and S-Bahn, when the S-Bahnstation opened in 1939. today there is an underground supermarket there. After reunification they decided to build a 500 m tunnel with Potsdamer Platz-station for the future U3 (again this line to Weißensee). This line must underpass U2-tunnels and therefore they decided to stop building this tunnel further to the east. But exactly there would have been the conncting tunnel between S- und U-Bahn (u2 and new U3). Yes this is really a pity, that it didn´t gonna happen. Same goes for U7 to S2 at Yorckstraße. Work was done for a better connection to S2 in the metro-station but future location of S2-platform is still unclear.

They will close Französische Straße on U6 when Unter den Linden-station for U5/U6 will open in 2019. This is the reason why Französische Straße wasn´t refurbished in the 90s, no lift, no new lightning etc.. Till now it is not clear what will happen to this station after opening of Unter den Linden, which is just exactly at the north of the existing station.

There is another project often overseen, it´s the S21. The S21 will form a connection between Wedding and Westhafen and Hauptbahnhof. Recently DBAG spoke about building this line further down to Postdamer Platz (federal budget is still available). This would create a real useful link to the Hauptbahnhof, mainly for passengers coming from southern parts of Berlin. S21 is under construction to Hbf. already. The further part to Potsdamer Platz is in real project stage.

Not to forget the already finished airport-S-Bahn without airport

Kind regards
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 12:17 PM   #648
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Sure?
Absolut. This project was cancelled in 1975 just after opening Tierpark-station on line E. It was thought to run from Tierpark to Lichtenberg Nordost in a first stage, which would have been a transfer-station with a new planed subway-line to Marzahn. Because East-Berlin had no money for both, new subway and the extensive estate-program, they decided to invent Tatra-trams on new lines. Most of that tram-lines have seperate tracks form traffic and they have reliable and quick service today. Tierpark-station was build in a way, that you can add another platform at the east without damage at the existing platform. The connecting tunnel to the tram-station was planned as a connection to the other metro-platform. For that reason it was build later in 1989 when the line E reached Hönow and no one thought about a subway-line along M17 anymore. Try to show you this plan

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9113425575/


Hopefully it works, it´s my first flickr and I´m older than 40 years

Kind regards
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Last edited by tunnel owl; June 23rd, 2013 at 01:11 PM.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 02:58 PM   #649
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This explains the tunnels partly built under Alex, as drawn in OSM... (Klostertunnel and GN Tunnel).
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 03:10 PM   #650
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Absolut. This project was cancelled in 1975 just after opening Tierpark-station on line E. It was thought to run from Tierpark to Lichtenberg Nordost in a first stage, which would have been a transfer-station with a new planed subway-line to Marzahn. Because East-Berlin had no money for both, new subway and the extensive estate-program, they decided to invent Tatra-trams on new lines. Most of that tram-lines have seperate tracks form traffic and they have reliable and quick service today. Tierpark-station was build in a way, that you can add another platform at the east without damage at the existing platform. The connecting tunnel to the tram-station was planned as a connection to the other metro-platform. For that reason it was build later in 1989 when the line E reached Hönow and no one thought about a subway-line along M17 anymore. Try to show you this plan

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9113425575/


Hopefully it works, it´s my first flickr and I´m older than 40 years

Kind regards
Thanks, I didn't know this project.

That's a good site about the Berlin underground: http://www.berliner-untergrundbahn.de/
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 08:20 PM   #651
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I recently was in Berlin and I really liked the transport system there.
Some thing I took a special note about:

The afternoon rush hour seemed not as crowded that other comparable systems do?

Nice and consistent architecture on the U-bahn.

For its rather short distances between stations, it felt relatively fast and efficient. Very good coverage inside the ring.

I did find it somewhat troublesome to know where the U-bahn train was heading. If it was a sign that said the next stations or the remaining important stations it would've helped. I did like the arrow that showed which direction the S-bahn ring had though. S-bahn also showed which stations was next on the station display. It also showed how long the trains where, compared to U-bahn, which did not. I noticed there where many people who needed to run(myself included) when a train was short. But I guess them also need signs where the trains are stopping also for this to work better.

I really liked the 24h service. Great!

I was caught in a ticket inspection. I guess it's my fault, but I belived I had a valid ticket at the time.
I arrived in Berlin at Tuesday evening. I bought a 7-day ABC ticket and stamped it around 20:30 Tuesday(I had 8 days in Berlin).
The next Tuesday I was caught around 10:30. I believed it would work 168(24*7) hours, hence the timestamp on the ticket. Apparently it didn't. I should've waited to Wednesday morning before I stamped the ticket? Learned that the hard way..

I liked the new stations on S-bahn. Also the connection points south/east/west. Better signage wouldn't hurt.

Overall a nice system and a very nice city. Definitely coming back.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:22 PM   #652
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About ticketing, they're right:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17183...cle/77395.html

Although, without ckeching, I shared your belief about the 168 hrs (and I used that ticket many times in my life!). I usually check these things every time I travel, to be sure it was not changed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northridge View Post
I did find it somewhat troublesome to know where the U-bahn train was heading. If it was a sign that said the next stations or the remaining important stations it would've helped. I did like the arrow that showed which direction the S-bahn ring had though. S-bahn also showed which stations was next on the station display. It also showed how long the trains where, compared to U-bahn, which did not. I noticed there where many people who needed to run(myself included) when a train was short. But I guess them also need signs where the trains are stopping also for this to work better.
About the train direction, I'd say it is the same system everywhere: number of the line and terminal station, as seen on the map.
It can get a bit tricky if the train doesn't terminate at the usual station, due to a partial run or works on the line.

The lenght of the train, and also where it will stop, are usually written on the LCDs, but only in German ("Kurzzug hält vorn/mittig/hinten"). And they also draw this information on the third rail cover, with arrows pointing to the right waiting point.
But I guess it's pretty much useless if not written in English too. The S-Bahn uses symbols and that's universal.

And yes, as long as I remeber only newer U-Bahn trains have the written next station info, older ones only have the voice.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:53 PM   #653
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Was in Berlin a few days ago. Found myself using the S-Bahn more than anything. Used the U-Bahn once in all my trip.

I love the classification of U-Bahn and S-Bahn. On returning to Glasgow, I took the train from Partick to Central LL, and it felt very much like using the S-Bahn in Berlin. We could really do with a similar set up here!

It's been very hot in Berlin the past few days. Got on a train at Ostkreuz during rush hour, and it was very uncomfortable!
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 11:03 PM   #654
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Actually, only some of the new trains on U5 have displays showing the next station(s).

The big problem in Berlin (and more less in the whole Germany) is the signage of any kind which is HORRIFIC. I never saw such a confusing, amateurish and really badly done job on proper signing the directions, no matter where you are....Road, Street, Autobahn, U-Bahn....it's really bad and unless you're not a native or just know the right directions from the experience, it's a nightmare. Berlin's U-Bahn is of course not different, for example, signage on how to exit from the Berlin Gesundbrunnen is NON EXISTING, everytime when I change for/from U8 there is someone who asks how to get out of the station, Berliners and non Berliners. Or in the Berliner Strasse U-Bahn, the signs showing how to change from U7 to U9 are completely useless because it leads you on surface instead on the platforms....list goes on an on.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 11:23 PM   #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
About ticketing, they're right:
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/en/17183...cle/77395.html

Although, without ckeching, I shared your belief about the 168 hrs (and I used that ticket many times in my life!). I usually check these things every time I travel, to be sure it was not changed...


About the train direction, I'd say it is the same system everywhere: number of the line and terminal station, as seen on the map.
It can get a bit tricky if the train doesn't terminate at the usual station, due to a partial run or works on the line.

The lenght of the train, and also where it will stop, are usually written on the LCDs, but only in German ("Kurzzug hält vorn/mittig/hinten"). And they also draw this information on the third rail cover, with arrows pointing to the right waiting point.
But I guess it's pretty much useless if not written in English too. The S-Bahn uses symbols and that's universal.

And yes, as long as I remeber only newer U-Bahn trains have the written next station info, older ones only have the voice.
Yea, it was totally my fault. The one thing that made me certain was the time stamp on the ticket.

I quickly figured out that knowing the end stop of the train before entering the station/connecting line would help a lot, and it did.
Signs like this is usually pretty good to have:


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Old June 24th, 2013, 01:22 AM   #656
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I think the 7-day ticket is valid until 3AM of the 7th transportation calendar day (which begins 3AM???) after the day you stamped it.

Apparently there are plenty of unused ROW space alongside the ring S-Bahn. Some disused tracks and some rather new, but non-electrified tracks. What is/was the purpose of those tracks? Why don't they set up some express services on the ring (stopping only at Westkreuz, Sudkreuz, Ostkreuz and Gesundbrunner)? Apparently space is not a problem on the ring, they could even develop some massive park-and-ride facilities or shopping complexes integrated with U-Bahn stations.

There are remnants of a rail track along the Mauerpark. Was that a former freight yard?
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Old June 24th, 2013, 03:14 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Apparently there are plenty of unused ROW space alongside the ring S-Bahn. Some disused tracks and some rather new, but non-electrified tracks. What is/was the purpose of those tracks? Why don't they set up some express services on the ring (stopping only at Westkreuz, Sudkreuz, Ostkreuz and Gesundbrunner)? Apparently space is not a problem on the ring, they could even develop some massive park-and-ride facilities or shopping complexes integrated with U-Bahn stations.
There is indeed space along the ring line. Just not the entire circle around. Especially the eastern and western sections of the ring line are pretty much entrenched into development. Space is only there where there once were the facilities of marshalling yards. And these were mainly along the southern and north-western section of the ring.

But even if there were space all around, services which call just at four stations would make little sense. And why exactly these four stations. Almost all stations along the ring line provide interchanges to radial lines of the U-Bahn, S-Bahn and tram network. You can't skip any of them.

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There are remnants of a rail track along the Mauerpark. Was that a former freight yard?
That was the site of the Nordbahnhof, the southern terminus of the Nordbahn. Passenger services were diverted to the Stettiner Bf from the 1890s on. So that this station was a goods station until it fell into decay after WW2.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 03:30 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by SturmBeobachter View Post
The big problem in Berlin (and more less in the whole Germany) is the signage of any kind which is HORRIFIC. I never saw such a confusing, amateurish and really badly done job on proper signing the directions, no matter where you are....Road, Street, Autobahn, U-Bahn....it's really bad and unless you're not a native or just know the right directions from the experience, it's a nightmare. Berlin's U-Bahn is of course not different, for example, signage on how to exit from the Berlin Gesundbrunnen is NON EXISTING, everytime when I change for/from U8 there is someone who asks how to get out of the station, Berliners and non Berliners. Or in the Berliner Strasse U-Bahn, the signs showing how to change from U7 to U9 are completely useless because it leads you on surface instead on the platforms....list goes on an on.
That is simply not true. Signage in Germany is rather excellent. Fonts, colour schemes and overall design is well thought-out and user-optimised. Whether it's roads or public transport facilities, the signage is clear to read and fool-proof.
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Old June 24th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
That is simply not true. Signage in Germany is rather excellent. Fonts, colour schemes and overall design is well thought-out and user-optimised. Whether it's roads or public transport facilities, the signage is clear to read and fool-proof.
Apart from some rare exceptions, I agree.
Years ago I had serious problems in choosing the right ticket and getting around the double U-Bhfe in Hamburg Hbf, and my thought was "They should learn from Berlin...".

Also, some cited the not so optimal interchanges between S and U stations. Apart from a few cases pointed out by tunnel owl, Berliner interchanges are usually almost perfect, to the point that a good interchange is usually described as "Berlin-level"

Personally, I consider Berlin's network as the Bible of Transports: if you're looking for any specific design, you'll find it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
But even if there were space all around, services which call just at four stations would make little sense. And why exactly these four stations. Almost all stations along the ring line provide interchanges to radial lines of the U-Bahn, S-Bahn and tram network. You can't skip any of them.
I've been dreaming about a RE-Ring calling only at the four corners, but it's just a fantasy exercise

More seriously: finally Ostkreuz will have its RE platform, a much needed interchange. What about the same for Westkreuz?

Pros:
- an equally important interchange as the other three
- all four railway tracks just 100 m from the S platform

Cons:
- Charlie is just 1,2 km away, pretty close for two RE stops (less than Hbf - Friedrichstr., and they're the main hubs)
- Westkreuz, as a station and not as an interchange, is pretty much in the middle of nothing (similar to Südkreuz, though, but without the bus hub)

An option could be to move the RE stop from Charlie to Westkreuz, but makes no sense since you'd move it from a populated to a deserted area


Probably it's not much needed since the RE-S interchange happens at Charlie, and there you find U7 which is mostly parallel to the west Ring.
But I still have the impression that western Ringbahn is the poor sibling of the rest of it - so many stations with no or poor interchange with other lines, A100 separating it from the neighbourhoods, the poor thing feels lost...
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Old June 24th, 2013, 06:50 AM   #660
tunnel owl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
More seriously: finally Ostkreuz will have its RE platform, a much needed interchange. What about the same for Westkreuz?

Probably it's not much needed since the RE-S interchange happens at Charlie, and there you find U7 which is mostly parallel to the west Ring.
But I still have the impression that western Ringbahn is the poor sibling of the rest of it - so many stations with no or poor interchange with other lines, A100 separating it from the neighbourhoods, the poor thing feels lost...
Ostkreuz RE platform maybe does a good job for airport-trainservice one day, Westkreuz as you quoted lies in the middle of nowhere. That´s the main problem with S-Bahnstations on western ring between Jungfernheide and Bundesplatz. It´s paralleling U7 who´s stations are at the important places like Fehrbelliner PLatz or Wilmersdorfer Straße whereas S-Bahn publicity is often mainly generated from feeder busses or travellers from metro. This is a common thing with urbanrail not only in Berlin, even elsewhere in Europe. Some less stations have the vast majority of passengers and others could be skipped.

Since 1993 when BVG invented the so called Meta-design for station signage, information improved a lot due to unification. There is always something could have made better. What is really a bad thing in german trams and metros is the ticket-system. Berlin is comparable simple against Rhein-Ruhr or Munich e. g.. This is because you pay in zones and not exactly related to the time you are using public transport.

Kind regards
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