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Old June 25th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #681
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I was quite shocked that BVG allows animals on the transit system. Not service dogs for the blind, but regular pets. That is quite awful and third-world-ish. I understand and accept the need for service dogs, which are extensively trained for more than 2 years to help blind people. I don't understand why a person without disabilities should be able to carry any animal on transit, especially bigger dogs.
Sometimes it's not only one, but two or three dogs in a pack. But unless animals stink so badly that commuters must change for another train it's fine. For me the biggest problem are so called "Cyclists" who are constantly blocking entrances/exits and whole train carriages, they are punctual in their need for a healthy life style which always corresponds with the the rush hours no matter which day trough the week it is. I don't see a point in riding souped up bicycle on a train for 35 minutes, and then make a few circles around Grünewald. If you're a real cyclist, you would do that trip completely on your bike, you do not need a train to carry you 85% of your complete route. Bicycles are for the roads, not for the trains!
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Old June 26th, 2013, 12:09 AM   #682
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It seems that pets are allowed on public transit in most Western European countries, which leaves exactly which 1st world countries that ban pets on public transit?

There's nothing 3rd world about allowing pets on transit.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #683
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I think pets are banned in most US cities (except the ones that go on a cage/bag). Most cities will allow that.

Many Dutch cities also ban animals altogether on transit.

Of course, service animals are allowed.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #684
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It's allowed with dogs, but I noticed that they must be wearing a strap around their mouth. However, this rule was not followed or enforced as I saw. I saw a couple of dogs maybe that had the strap on(no pun!).
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Old June 26th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I've been dreaming about a RE-Ring calling only at the four corners, but it's just a fantasy exercise

More seriously: finally Ostkreuz will have its RE platform, a much needed interchange. What about the same for Westkreuz?

Pros:
- an equally important interchange as the other three
- all four railway tracks just 100 m from the S platform

Cons:
- Charlie is just 1,2 km away, pretty close for two RE stops (less than Hbf - Friedrichstr., and they're the main hubs)
- Westkreuz, as a station and not as an interchange, is pretty much in the middle of nothing (similar to Südkreuz, though, but without the bus hub)

An option could be to move the RE stop from Charlie to Westkreuz, but makes no sense since you'd move it from a populated to a deserted area

Probably it's not much needed since the RE-S interchange happens at Charlie, and there you find U7 which is mostly parallel to the west Ring.
But I still have the impression that western Ringbahn is the poor sibling of the rest of it - so many stations with no or poor interchange with other lines, A100 separating it from the neighbourhoods, the poor thing feels lost...
A mainline stop at Westkreuz might seem to be the next logical step after the development at Ostkreuz station. It is, however, not that straight forward. While regaining some of lost stance over the last two decades, the S-Bahn is still not that important in the West-Berlin as it in the eastern part of the city. And due to the denser Underground network in the west it probably never will be. Consequently Westkreuz is nowhere near as important as a transport hub as Ostkreuz is.
Furthermore are the mainline tracks a whole 150 m away from the S-Bahn station at Westkreuz which makes it rather difficult (read prohibitively expansive) to form a compact interchange station similar to its eastern counterpart.

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Letting the fantasy go, one could also create a RE link through Ostkreuz and Gesundbrunnen, for example bringing the RB22 to Spandau via Gesund.-Jungfernheid, or a new RE trunk K-Wusterhausen - Ostkreuz - Gesund. - Hbf... (just making examples here).
Although a "Ring RB22" Potsdam - Spandau sounds nice...
People from Brandenburg want to go to central Berlin predominantly. Therefore RE and RB services should be routed via the Stadtbahn or Tiergarten route and not the ring line. Regional services on the ring line would cost a lot of money while they add very little value. Hence there virtually don't exist.
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Old June 26th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #686
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Doesn't the Ring Bahn has a lot of potential for high-density TOD development? I've seen plenty of vacant industrial land across stations. And once the mess at Grundenbrunnen is sorted out, it makes all "lesser" stops on the ring rather attractive, within easy reach and easy transfer from any other point. Places Stations like Westend, Westhafen, Treptow Tower seem to have plenty of land lingering around.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 12:12 AM   #687
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Why? What's the problem with dogs?
Having a pony passenger should always come handy if your S-Bahn breaks downa again. So no, no problems with animals on Berlin trains at all, quite the contrary.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #688
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are there any plans to enclose metro stations in Berlin with turnstiles?
There has been a system with barriers in Berlin U-Bahn until the early 70s. Concourse-levels of newer stations are big enough to have a turnstile-system in general, older not. Your question about introducing turnstiles was examined several times in Berlin.

First: The space for deviding the concours-level in a ticket-free-zone and a ticket-zone is meanwhile used for commercial purpose in Berlin. Itīs said that a significant part to maintain the stations is generated from shops, commercials and so on. Second: Berlin U-Bahn has the task to have every metro-station wheelchair-accesible until 2023. Lifts often can be easily build from street-level right onto the platform. A metro-system with turnstiles does make that more complicated, especially for the lifts and shops already in service.

I have to admit what Slartibartfas from Vienna said about open systems vs. turnstile-system. For people who are disabled in mobility (wheelchairs, buggies, luggage) turnstiles have to be surveyed from stuff. Thatīs what I saw in every system with turnstiles worldwide. Turnstiles do have to be maintained. Big metro-systems have special service-departments for that. Iīm not sure if this all in all is realler cheaper as to have stuff controlling tickets in trains.

Turnstiles cause problems in case of emergency. Even if they have an emergency-mode to open automatically in case of no power-supply or fire (like it is foreseen in the NFPA 130 e. g.) there is still a real barrier for a big amount of passengers which has to be evacuated fast.

About social control: Drug dealers in Berlin do a lot of things, but they donīt ride without ticket. But ok, platform could be free from people only hanging around to drink beer etc. with turnstiles. This to be said I remember riding the Stockholm-Metro. Itīs a real beautiful city and Iīm a big fan of the stations (Berlin U-Bahn took a trip to Stockholm in 1979 for inspiration of station-architecture) but like in many other european cities areas like Farsta, Norsborg and even some parts on the blue line (Husby) have social problems. Arriving at Farsta-station those people mentioned above hang around in front of the turmstiles, not at the platform. I really felt no difference concerning security in this.

Kind regards
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Old June 27th, 2013, 10:25 AM   #689
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Oslo says hi and also congratulate you that you have thought of the security problems with turnstiles before installing them.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I was quite shocked that BVG allows animals on the transit system. Not service dogs for the blind, but regular pets. That is quite awful and third-world-ish. I understand and accept the need for service dogs, which are extensively trained for more than 2 years to help blind people. I don't understand why a person without disabilities should be able to carry any animal on transit, especially bigger dogs.
Man, where are you from? From one of the countries where dogs are treated as "dirty" animals in the name of certain religion? Honestly, there are many passengers worldwide more dirty and more smelling than an average dog. In the most cities in Poland, Hungary, Czech and Slovak republic, etc. dogs are allowed- they must not run freely and they must wear the protective muzzle to avoid biting of someone else. Even cats, rabbits, snakes, rats, hamsters etc. are allowed in the public transportation! The basic rule is, that all these small animals must be placed in a locked box with bottom of plastic to avoid any pollution of the bus/tram. And generally the owner of the animal is responsible for any damages caused by his animal and can be fined in order to remove the excrements etc.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #691
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I'm not referring to animals locked in a box/transporter/cage, but carrying dogs on their own feet, just with a leash.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 02:45 PM   #692
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Having muzzled dogs on leashes on public transport vehicles is nowhere near the "Guatemala chicken bus" you've linked earlier.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #693
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I have a question: what is the difference between trams named with M or not? Just the frequency of services?

I thought it was something about the trams being segregated on ROWs (albeit with at-grade crossings) or not, but then I realized trams like the M8 runs in the middle of the street without even curbside access.

Also, is there a reason for which tere are so many tram services in SE Berlin?
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Old June 27th, 2013, 04:31 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question: what is the difference between trams named with M or not? Just the frequency of services?
Also, is there a reason for which tere are so many tram services in SE Berlin?
Yes, an M-line in Berlin (wheter if itīs bus or tram) offers at least a 10-minute-headway mainly the whole day and it has the same route at night (something like 24/7 bus in London). So, the many trams you see on a map in SE Berlin do often operate in 20-minute intervals and on the main part they overly to a 10Min. headway. Those trams in SE Berlin do often not have their own ROW, short trains, the network in Köpenick is 100 years old (though in good shape), sometimes single-track. Itīs nice for tram-tourists, but itīs not like Stadtbahn.

Some passengers critisized the M-system because e. g. M1-tram splits up into two branches in north Berlin and of cause each branch just offers 20-min. interval. But ok, it was also some kind of marketing back in 2004 to introduce the M-service.

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Old June 27th, 2013, 05:09 PM   #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
There has been a system with barriers in Berlin U-Bahn until the early 70s. Concourse-levels of newer stations are big enough to have a turnstile-system in general, older not. Your question about introducing turnstiles was examined several times in Berlin.

First: The space for deviding the concours-level in a ticket-free-zone and a ticket-zone is meanwhile used for commercial purpose in Berlin. Itīs said that a significant part to maintain the stations is generated from shops, commercials and so on. Second: Berlin U-Bahn has the task to have every metro-station wheelchair-accesible until 2023. Lifts often can be easily build from street-level right onto the platform. A metro-system with turnstiles does make that more complicated, especially for the lifts and shops already in service.

I have to admit what Slartibartfas from Vienna said about open systems vs. turnstile-system. For people who are disabled in mobility (wheelchairs, buggies, luggage) turnstiles have to be surveyed from stuff. Thatīs what I saw in every system with turnstiles worldwide. Turnstiles do have to be maintained. Big metro-systems have special service-departments for that. Iīm not sure if this all in all is realler cheaper as to have stuff controlling tickets in trains.

Turnstiles cause problems in case of emergency. Even if they have an emergency-mode to open automatically in case of no power-supply or fire (like it is foreseen in the NFPA 130 e. g.) there is still a real barrier for a big amount of passengers which has to be evacuated fast.

About social control: Drug dealers in Berlin do a lot of things, but they donīt ride without ticket. But ok, platform could be free from people only hanging around to drink beer etc. with turnstiles. This to be said I remember riding the Stockholm-Metro. Itīs a real beautiful city and Iīm a big fan of the stations (Berlin U-Bahn took a trip to Stockholm in 1979 for inspiration of station-architecture) but like in many other european cities areas like Farsta, Norsborg and even some parts on the blue line (Husby) have social problems. Arriving at Farsta-station those people mentioned above hang around in front of the turmstiles, not at the platform. I really felt no difference concerning security in this.

Kind regards
Farsta is not a problem area at all - it's generally quite nice especially down at the strand.

Norsborg is not a problem compared to Fittja or Alby, a few stations up the line - it's fine and I lived there.

Husby is relatively calm and peaceful most of the time, recent disturbances excluded. The biggest problem areas on the blue line are Rinkeby and Tensta.

You have to realise, though, that these are "Swedish" problem areas, not regular problem areas. I lived in a "problem" area with my wife and had absolutely no problems despite arriving home from the lab late at night all the time. The reason you'll have seen people "hanging around" outside the turnstiles at Farsta Centrum is that there is a major bus interchange there and the bus departures leave from just outside the station. Many people prefer to wait inside rather than outside the station.
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Old June 27th, 2013, 07:24 PM   #696
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Also, is there a reason for which tere are so many tram services in SE Berlin?
Trams were/remained very popular with GDR planners (I guess because they were relatively cheap and Skoda was easily available) so even today the tram network is concentrated in the East. Quite a lot East German cities preserved rather big tram networks whereas they often were replaced by undergrounds, Stadtbahnen or bus services in Western German cities.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
There has been a system with barriers in Berlin U-Bahn until the early 70s. Concourse-levels of newer stations are big enough to have a turnstile-system in general, older not. Your question about introducing turnstiles was examined several times in Berlin.

First: The space for deviding the concours-level in a ticket-free-zone and a ticket-zone is meanwhile used for commercial purpose in Berlin. Itīs said that a significant part to maintain the stations is generated from shops, commercials and so on. Second: Berlin U-Bahn has the task to have every metro-station wheelchair-accesible until 2023. Lifts often can be easily build from street-level right onto the platform. A metro-system with turnstiles does make that more complicated, especially for the lifts and shops already in service.

I have to admit what Slartibartfas from Vienna said about open systems vs. turnstile-system. For people who are disabled in mobility (wheelchairs, buggies, luggage) turnstiles have to be surveyed from stuff. Thatīs what I saw in every system with turnstiles worldwide. Turnstiles do have to be maintained. Big metro-systems have special service-departments for that. Iīm not sure if this all in all is realler cheaper as to have stuff controlling tickets in trains.

Turnstiles cause problems in case of emergency. Even if they have an emergency-mode to open automatically in case of no power-supply or fire (like it is foreseen in the NFPA 130 e. g.) there is still a real barrier for a big amount of passengers which has to be evacuated fast.

About social control: Drug dealers in Berlin do a lot of things, but they donīt ride without ticket. But ok, platform could be free from people only hanging around to drink beer etc. with turnstiles. This to be said I remember riding the Stockholm-Metro. Itīs a real beautiful city and Iīm a big fan of the stations (Berlin U-Bahn took a trip to Stockholm in 1979 for inspiration of station-architecture) but like in many other european cities areas like Farsta, Norsborg and even some parts on the blue line (Husby) have social problems. Arriving at Farsta-station those people mentioned above hang around in front of the turmstiles, not at the platform. I really felt no difference concerning security in this.

Kind regards
i guess the fraud must be very high ... isnt it? i was quite shocked by the fact people dont have to obliterate the ticket or whatsoever before entering the platforms ... when i visited Berlin... i have never checked in before using the metro even though i had a pass.
also... people drink a lot in the metro ... quite nice though. i guess it was similar in the tube before the ban.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 06:45 PM   #698
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i guess the fraud must be very high ... isnt it?
also... people drink a lot in the metro ... quite nice though. i guess it was similar in the tube before the ban.
No, the fraud is not very high. Drinking and smoking is a problem. There is a ban in Berlin. too. But there is no real control and penalty thatīs the problem. Personally I think the situation got worse as itīs also with attacks against bus-drivers and metro-stuff.

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Old June 28th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #699
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also... people drink a lot in the metro ... quite nice though. i guess it was similar in the tube before the ban.
Agreed, very nice.
But it's not allowed though. Seems like the rule isn't enforced either.
They even open your beer at the platform kiosk.
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Old June 28th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #700
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I was quite shocked that BVG allows animals on the transit system. Not service dogs for the blind, but regular pets. That is quite awful and third-world-ish. I understand and accept the need for service dogs, which are extensively trained for more than 2 years to help blind people. I don't understand why a person without disabilities should be able to carry any animal on transit, especially bigger dogs.
We allow Domesticated pets as long as their small and in cages... Most Animals do not cause issues... Larger dogs must be muzzled...
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