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Old July 10th, 2013, 11:11 PM   #721
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You're not wrong! S45 terminates at Hermannstr. due to construction works. You can take S41 from Hermannstr. to Südkreuz, there is replacement bus service to Bundesplatz but I guess it's much faster to take bus line M46 from Südkreuz.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #722
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Two questions about what I named the "Köllnische Dreieck" , the triangle Neukölln/Baumschulenweg/Treptower Park.

Treptower Park and Baumschulenweg stations have at least 3 or 4 tracks, with indipendent access from both possible directions, meaning that trains must not wait outside the station and can be received at the same time.

1) Will Neukölln be upgraded with a second platform? It can be a bottleneck.

2) Baumschulenweg had been rebuilt with new bridges and platforms, and spaces allow a 4th track (direction Treptower Park), if a new bridge is added. Are there any plans to do so?
Although I don't think it's urgent.


The same kind of bottlenecks will be seen when S21 will be completed: Südkreuz (upper level), Wedding and Westhafen are all single platform stations, and so will probably be Hbf (S)... while Julius-Leber-Brücke was designed properly, and Potsdamer Platz is ok from 1939
I guess what will happen with a potential Gleisdreieck S-station...
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Last edited by Wilhem275; July 11th, 2013 at 12:19 AM.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeromeee View Post
You're not wrong! S45 terminates at Hermannstr. due to construction works. You can take S41 from Hermannstr. to Südkreuz, there is replacement bus service to Bundesplatz but I guess it's much faster to take bus line M46 from Südkreuz.
So... it's not even running to Südkreuz? Damn. Thanks!
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Old July 11th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
1) Will Neukölln be upgraded with a second platform? It can be a bottleneck.

2) Baumschulenweg had been rebuilt with new bridges and platforms, and spaces allow a 4th track (direction Treptower Park), if a new bridge is added. Are there any plans to do so?
Although I don't think it's urgent.
...
Back in 1989 when the S-Bahn-Südring was rebuild, there were talks about a new station Neukölln, lying over the bridge. But this bridge is very massive and it would be expensive to be rebuild. That´s the reason why there is no second platform for the S-Bahn. In fact it is already a bottleneck. There are no plans to add a fourth track at Baumschulenweg. Obviously it is sufficient to have two tracks where the lines split of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
The same kind of bottlenecks will be seen when S21 will be completed: Südkreuz (upper level), Wedding and Westhafen are all single platform stations, and so will probably be Hbf (S)... while Julius-Leber-Brücke was designed properly, and Potsdamer Platz is ok from 1939
I guess what will happen with a potential Gleisdreieck S-station...
Yes, you´re right, only Julius-Leber-Brücke allows the addition of further tracks and Wedding might be a bottleneck one day. Westhafen is maybe not that worse as it could be the terminus for the new line. There is space foreseen for siding tracks there. Nowadays we tend to build infrastructure too small because money is everything. But S21 from Potsdamer Platz to Südkreuz is just a dream anyway.

Kind regards
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Old July 11th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #725
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Is there a direct rail link to Berlin-Schönefeld Airport and Tegel Airport?
Maybe I will go to Berlin in few months, and I would like to know it.
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Old July 11th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #726
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Is there a direct rail link to Berlin-Schönefeld Airport and Tegel Airport?
Maybe I will go to Berlin in few months, and I would like to know it.
No rail link from Tegel (and no more Tegel at all, in a few months...).
From Schönefeld you have two S-Bahn lines and some RegioExpress trains; since they cost the same, I suggest using RE trains because they're a lot faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Back in 1989 when the S-Bahn-Südring was rebuild, there were talks about a new station Neukölln, lying over the bridge. But this bridge is very massive and it would be expensive to be rebuild. That´s the reason why there is no second platform for the S-Bahn. In fact it is already a bottleneck.
I think I have a cheap solution Since they will have to complete the 2-tracks freight line of the Ring from Hermannstr. to Treptower Park, they could remove some of the tracks beside Neukölln station.
Let's say the current S-tracks are 1 & 2, the layout may be:
- 1 from Sonnenallee
- 2 from Köllnische Heide
- 3 to Köllnische Heide
- (4) covered by the new platform
- 5 to Sonnenallee
- 6 & 7 freight Ring line

The current freight sidings of Neukölln (there are always Ludmillas and containers parked there...) may be moved to different areas that today are empty, without the need of important works:
- shorter tracks can be shifted to the empty area between Hermannstr. and Neukölln (Hertabrücke is wide enough)
- longer tracks can be fitted in the empty siding between Sonnenallee and Kiefholzstraße

All bridges and main works are ready for this operation. Only problem I imagine is that it would not be possible to install a new lift straight to U7, because it's almost impossible to create a hole in this structure without a complex operation. All accesses to the second platform would be through the existing one.


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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Yes, you´re right, only Julius-Leber-Brücke allows the addition of further tracks and Wedding might be a bottleneck one day. Westhafen is maybe not that worse as it could be the terminus for the new line. There is space foreseen for siding tracks there. Nowadays we tend to build infrastructure too small because money is everything. But S21 from Potsdamer Platz to Südkreuz is just a dream anyway.
Yep, maybe I'm a little obsessed with capacity, but I always use Berlin as an example of "always provide indipendent tracks to get into the station, when two lines meet", and now I see they're losing this golden rule
So, even if there is space between Westhafen and Beusselstr. for a terminus, I'm worried by S21 and S42 getting in each other's way (and even worse at Wedding).

I'll go on with S21, this topic always tickles me...
I wouldn't even terminate it at Westhafen: ok, there's U9, but still it's in the middle of nothing. I'd try to reach Jungfernheide, but since there is no space for a terminus... let's make it Westend (they have many ready sidings there). Well, let's make it S46 K-Wusterhausen - Hbf

Perleberger Brücke station will easily have indipendent tracks, so it would not be a problem to have Hbf with just one platform.

Then, was there a final decision about building or not a Reichstag S-Bahnhof in Friedrich-Ebert-Platz? I think it would be a wise choice: 1 km both from Hbf and Potsdamer Platz, and a very good access from all the Reichstagufer/Brandenburger Tor area.
Without that stop the "S21" stretch is at risk of being ignored as a way for getting in Mitte, with 2 km without stops (same service REs provide).

I would not be too pessimistic about the southern part of S21. Once they reach the "Heuboden" under Ebertstr., most of the work is done: tunnels from that siding down to Mendelssohn-Bartholdy-Park are basically already built, and everything south of Landwehrkanal will be overground in almost empty areas.
Doesn't come for free, as some new viaducts are needed, but having no more tunnels to dig is a good vantage point

Another great doubt about S21 is: why they didn't keep a temporary service Gesundbrunnen - Südkreuz like they did in 2006? The line has lot of spare capacity, and RE services don't run often enough to consider it a city link (and some even terminate at Hbf).
In my trips I often felt such frequent service is missing, and the infrastructure is ready... it would not cost a fortune, it's a 12' run and a couple of BR442 would be enough.

Mfg
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Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; July 11th, 2013 at 07:52 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 12:10 AM   #727
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Quote:
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Another great doubt about S21 is: why they didn't keep a temporary service Gesundbrunnen - Südkreuz like they did in 2006? The line has lot of spare capacity, and RE services don't run often enough to consider it a city link (and some even terminate at Hbf).
In my trips I often felt such frequent service is missing, and the infrastructure is ready... it would not cost a fortune, it's a 12' run and a couple of BR442 would be enough.
S21 services were a mock of an S-Bahn. In fact these services were more like RE intensifier. Just that RE services are of little use for inner-Berlin travel. Hence these services were shunned. Omitting stations like Wedding along its way could never provide the same benefits for passengers that a proper S-Bahn will. Once there is a real S-Bahn running patronage will be quite high. That's for sure.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 01:45 AM   #728
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Of course it was a RE limited to the city and skipped important stops, but better an incomplete service than no service.

I don't propose it instead of the proper S21, but it would have filled a gap from 2006 to 202x, and would also have generated a stronger demand for that connection (pushing the completion of the real S21).
As of today, Gesundbrunnen - Hbf, Hbf - Potsdamer Platz and Hbf - Südkreuz connections are not well served, because they follow a regional schedule and not a urban one; and S21 is still far in the future.
"RE21" would provide immediate relief at a relatively low price, and with no need for new infrastructure; waiting for the complete solution.

If I miss RE3 at :31, I'm basically screwed for 30'. To Potsdamer Platz I'd better go out and get an M41, to Südkreuz I must change anyway.
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; July 12th, 2013 at 01:54 AM.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 05:15 AM   #729
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Quote:
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No rail link from Tegel (and no more Tegel at all, in a few months...).
From Schönefeld you have two S-Bahn lines and some RegioExpress trains; since they cost the same, I suggest using RE trains because they're a lot faster.
Can one use the same ABC tickets on the RE as one would use on the S-Bahn?
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Old July 12th, 2013, 09:17 AM   #730
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Can one use the same ABC tickets on the RE as one would use on the S-Bahn?
Yes, as long as travel is limited to those zones.

These tickets cannot be used for EC, IC or ICE services though, even if they stop twice within the fare zone.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #731
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Yes, as long as travel is limited to those zones.

These tickets cannot be used for EC, IC or ICE services though, even if they stop twice within the fare zone.
Oh, that's interesting. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to ride the RE because of the tickets, but that's nice. Thanks!

I wish I could ride the ICE again this summer, but tickets are so expensive.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 09:56 AM   #732
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Expensive? ICE tickets cost as little as € 29 if you buy them in advance...
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Old July 12th, 2013, 10:07 AM   #733
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Expensive? ICE tickets cost as little as € 29 if you buy them in advance...
Expensive because I'm a mere student and I haven't bought them early enough. €80-100 is a shitload of money to me, unfortunately.
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Old July 12th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #734
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All bridges and main works are ready for this operation. Only problem I imagine is that it would not be possible to install a new lift straight to U7, because it's almost impossible to create a hole in this structure without a complex operation. All accesses to the second platform would be through the existing one.
Yes, access to that second platform would be through the existing ticket-hall only. There is no trouble with freight-tracks, it´s the flyover of Baumschulenweg-Bahn tracks, lying very near to Neukölln-station. So it´s not that easy to create a 3 or 4-track-station. But it´s likely that something could happen here one day in future.

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I'll go on with S21, this topic always tickles me...
I wouldn't even terminate it at Westhafen: ok, there's U9, but still it's in the middle of nothing. I'd try to reach Jungfernheide, but since there is no space for a terminus... let's make it Westend (they have many ready sidings there). Well, let's make it S46 K-Wusterhausen - Hbf
Perleberger Brücke station will easily have indipendent tracks, so it would not be a problem to have Hbf with just one platform.
That´s exactly what they plan with S46. Meanwhile the idea of creating a Ringbahn-service into Hbf is scrapped (luckily). Probably the northern part will be served with a line from Waidmannslust or Buch. Yes you´re right, Perleberger Brücke-station would be ideal as long as it will be build. Actually there is only space foreseen for this station as they think, that the build-up area there does not justify a station. I hope this will change with the comlex Europa-city housing and commercial project there.


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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Then, was there a final decision about building or not a Reichstag S-Bahnhof in Friedrich-Ebert-Platz? I think it would be a wise choice: 1 km both from Hbf and Potsdamer Platz, and a very good access from all the Reichstagufer/Brandenburger Tor area.
Without that stop the "S21" stretch is at risk of being ignored as a way for getting in Mitte, with 2 km without stops (same service REs provide).
This station will not be build because there will be tracks with very steep gradient from the mentioned "Heuboden" just below ground to the underpass of Spree-river. Already without this station it´s difficult to reach the necessary depth to cross the river. A station at the Reichstag is not allowed to have high gradient at platform-level and so the tunnels would become eben more problematic. Basically you´re right, that S21 just has the same amount of stations between Potsdamer Pl. and Hbf. like RE has, but S21 has the very important connection to Yorckstraße U7 which RE has not. This creates the possibility to reach Hbf only via S- and U-Bahn for many people in Neukölln/Kreuzberg and Schöneberg.

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I would not be too pessimistic about the southern part of S21. Once they reach the "Heuboden" under Ebertstr., most of the work is done: tunnels from that siding down to Mendelssohn-Bartholdy-Park are basically already built, and everything south of Landwehrkanal will be overground in almost empty areas.
Doesn't come for free, as some new viaducts are needed, but having no more tunnels to dig is a good vantage point
Mfg
There are around 40 m of tunnel build in the 1930s and another part of 30 m under the new housing-complex at Stresemannstraße build for S21 in the 90s. I´ve been in that tunnels but didn´t took pictures unfortunately. The housing-complex near U2-tracks is build in a way, that it can be tunneled, further south the ramp of S21 is part of the Scandic-hotel. They planned to put a Gym in there but as I know it´s still empty and used for an emergency exit of U2-ramp.

The place further south is not empty anymore. They created the new Gleisdreieck-park in 2012/13. S21 will have to cross over the ramp of the DBAG-tunnel and under U2 viaduct. If you take a look at this point in the park it will look like a rollercoaster. I´m afraid that urban planners did not really had the S21-project in mind

At least I think it will be very difficult to have S21 tracks merging into Wannsee and Lichtenrade-tracks. If at all they create S21 to Wannsee-S-Bahntracks I suppose. Meanwhile it´s clear that S1 will use the new tunnel when it reaches Potsdame Platz.

Kind regards
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Old July 12th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
This station will not be build because there will be tracks with very steep gradient from the mentioned "Heuboden" just below ground to the underpass of Spree-river. Already without this station it´s difficult to reach the necessary depth to cross the river. A station at the Reichstag is not allowed to have high gradient at platform-level and so the tunnels would become eben more problematic. Basically you´re right, that S21 just has the same amount of stations between Potsdamer Pl. and Hbf. like RE has, but S21 has the very important connection to Yorckstraße U7 which RE has not. This creates the possibility to reach Hbf only via S- and U-Bahn for many people in Neukölln/Kreuzberg and Schöneberg.
... and Gleisdreieck, which will be even more important.
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Old July 13th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #736
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Does anyone know which lines have which trains? Or do U1, U2, U3 and U4 have all sorts of Kleinprofilzüge and U5, U6, U7, U8 and U9 also have all sorts of Großprofilzüge?

I hope I've made myself clear. hahaha
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Old July 14th, 2013, 03:54 AM   #737
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Metrolines U1 to U4 are built to "Kleinprofil" and only Kleinprofil-Zuge run on them. On the other tracks, Großprofil-Zuge are used. Wikipedia has an extensive list of what rolling stock is used where on the network.
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Old July 14th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #738
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Metrolines U1 to U4 are built to "Kleinprofil" and only Kleinprofil-Zuge run on them. On the other tracks, Großprofil-Zuge are used. Wikipedia has an extensive list of what rolling stock is used where on the network.
I haven't made myself clear.

I was trying to ask if one line has only one model assigned to it or if all lines run all models at the same time.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #739
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I haven't made myself clear.

I was trying to ask if one line has only one model assigned to it or if all lines run all models at the same time.
As already mentioned Berlins metro are divided into two sub-networks by loading gauge. This division forms the only persistent barrier for the vehicle fleet.
Each of the two sub-networks has its own pool of vehicles. Vehicles are in service on a certain line for years in some cases or just a single days in others. But this is no real assignation as vehicles are used rather flexible within its own sub-network. Hence there is no assignation of one series of vehicles to one service line as well.
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Old July 16th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #740
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So what are the two gauges and which lines have which? Is this a remnant of the division days or just an historical fact?

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