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Old July 28th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #881
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Other than third-rail, what is the uniqueness of Berlin Stadbahn fleet requirements?
DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), no ordinary floor height in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.
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Old July 28th, 2014, 11:14 PM   #882
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DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), no ordinary floor height in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.
If I'm not mistaken, the Berlin Senate wants to fund the new trains themselves to prevent an operator from keeping the fleet hostage (being unwilling to lease/sell to a new operator) as DB is doing with its current fleet.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 02:27 PM   #883
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DC, smaller loading gauge (Tunnel), <b>no ordinary floor height</b> in DB system. They simply estimated the time too short to develop new trains. Any new operator can only usw them in Berlin which makes the thing a risky business.
It uses the standard S-Bahn height. It is therefore very well standard compliant. And then again S-Bahn train-sets are supposed to run in Berlin and not somewhere else. This city needs its S-Bahn. That makes the purchase of a new S-Bahn fleet is a pretty secure business for a TOC as well as a bank.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 08:20 PM   #884
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Yes, but the city doesn't want a TOC purchasing the rolling stock. This is because the city fears that the TOC will keep the rolling stock hostage when the concession is to be re-let.

With the initial tender plans, DB made it clear that they were unwilling to provide the rolling stock to a future operator. Even now that DB has been directly awarded an extension to the contract, DB (formally S-Bahn Berlin) has said that they do not want to pay for the refurbishment that the BR480 and BR485 series need.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #885
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That's the mess we did when we separated infrastructure from services... letting the national operators keep the property of the public rolling stock.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #886
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It uses the standard S-Bahn height. It is therefore very well standard compliant.
Yes, you´re right. The old floor height was 1,03 m as an exception of the rule, made by DR. The new 481 already have common 0,96 m standard.

Building DC cars for DBAG is nearly unic. In the past Berlin S-Bahntrains run in Gdansk and on the Isartalbahn with AC. But no one would built trains for both systems for an unclear future in other networks.

The idea to have trains owned by the Senat and rented to the operator failed due to lack of money for buying them. this is no surprise as the Senat reacted helpless and stupid during the S-Bahn crisis as they saw, they signed a contract with DBAG with no alternative.

Whereas trains had been a main issue of the S-Bahn crisis one should not forget that many interruptions and system blackouts are caused by the signalling-system and other belongings of the infrastructure which will be still operated by DBAG. So a new train operator would not automatically improve the reliability.

Meanwhile the S-Bahn is much better than some years before as they fixed problems with 481 (hopefully). The 480 and 485 trainsets have been delivered between 1987 amd 1992. Getting them out of service in 2025 let them have a normal running time. Berlins U-Bahn has the majority of it´s fleet beeing older than that trains.
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Old July 29th, 2014, 11:15 PM   #887
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What about converting Berlin S-Bahn to cantenary and 16,7kV/15Hz? Is that possible/feasible? Do that North-South tunnel have clearance for rigid cantenary?
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Old July 29th, 2014, 11:24 PM   #888
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What about converting Berlin S-Bahn to cantenary and 16,7kV/15Hz? Is that possible/feasible? Do that North-South tunnel have clearance for rigid cantenary?
No, North-South tunnel has no clearance for this. Other parts would, but not completely (bridges, platform-roofes). It was never seen as an option, because it would be a giant operation which would not pay out. Only thing was to upgrade the network on 1.500 DC Voltage for other reasons, never came to reality as even this was seen as not beneficial.

Interesting btw the Hamburg S-Bahn was changed from catenary to third rail as they planned to have tunnels with lower loading gauge as Berlin (to cut it short).
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Old July 29th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #889
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That's the mess we did when we separated infrastructure from services... letting the national operators keep the property of the public rolling stock.
Private operators might do the same thing if given the opportunity to do so, I think. However, as the Berlin S-Bahn is unique from a technical point of view, not making the vehicles available to another operator would mean that the previous operator would remain with a large fleet of unusable vehicles. Private companies usually don't appreciate huge writedowns on assets if they can lease or sell them.

Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period. The city of Berlin could do the same with the concession, this puts the financial burden with the private party that takes over from DB.

-=-

Now on to a wholly different subject: fare dodging. In Amsterdam, about 1.9% of passengers is a fare dodgers. Are there any known figures about fare dodging in Berlin, or is this well under control by BVG and DB?
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Old July 30th, 2014, 12:01 AM   #890
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Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period.
This is a good way to handle it.

Another idea is to have a public RoSCo which has to lease the stock to operators (even for free), while obliging them to manage the maintenance and maybe even the replacement.

The final results would be similar. What I don't like is the concept applied to DB and FS, which were given public goods which are now treated as a private property and used to undermine competitors.
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Old July 30th, 2014, 12:06 AM   #891
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Amen to that. In the UK, operators own almost no rolling stock as the market changes frequently and the lifespan of a train is much longer than that of an average franchise. There are some ROSCOs which own nearly all stock.
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Old July 30th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #892
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One of Berlin's most impressive underground stations is Heidelberger Platz on the U3:


Heidelberger Platz, U-Bahn Line 3, Berlin by stephenk1977 on Flickr


Heidelberger Platz by neufi on Flickr


Berlin - Heidelberger Platz by Siebbi on Flickr


U-Bahn Heidelberger Platz by jo.schz on Flickr


Eule by SebastianBerlin on Flickr
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Old July 30th, 2014, 05:59 PM   #893
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Here in the Netherlands, most concessions (even the NS operated mainline network) have a clause that the operator has to make the rolling stock available to a successor at the end of the concessionary period. The city of Berlin could do the same with the concession, this puts the financial burden with the private party that takes over from DB.
They could in an new contract. Berlin S-Bahn is basically a metro system, not to compare with other S-Bahn-systems in Germany. DBAG often fails to see this, e. g. they closed the special maintainance department for third rail and integrated it in the department of rigid catenary. This is what happens, if lawyers and salesmen rule the company, but almost no engineers. S-Bahn could work privately like Stockholms tunelbane and having a contract, saying trains belong to a possible successor.

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Now on to a wholly different subject: fare dodging. In Amsterdam, about 1.9% of passengers is a fare dodgers. Are there any known figures about fare dodging in Berlin, or is this well under control by BVG and DB?
1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value. There is a common sense in Germany, that open systems (and all U-Bahnen and Stadtbahnen are so) should calculate with a percentage of 3 to max. 5% fare dodgers. BVG has regular controls. The amount of controls depends on the part of fare dodgers compared to all controlled people. If it is high, controls get more and vice versa. At the moment fare dodging is no big problem in Berlin. Of cause it depends on the daytime and the location of control.
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Old July 30th, 2014, 11:19 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
They could in an new contract. Berlin S-Bahn is basically a metro system, not to compare with other S-Bahn-systems in Germany. DBAG often fails to see this, e. g. they closed the special maintainance department for third rail and integrated it in the department of rigid catenary. This is what happens, if lawyers and salesmen rule the company, but almost no engineers. S-Bahn could work privately like Stockholms tunelbane and having a contract, saying trains belong to a possible successor.
Agreed! A unique fleet such as S-Bahn Berlin's should be treated as such. DBAG has made a real mess out of SBB in the past years, a true shame.


Quote:
1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value.
Amsterdam's subway system is closed off with gates, which has been a tremendous help in reducing the number of fare dodgers. The tram system is somewhat unique: a large part of the fleet (the Combino vehicles) has a booth for a 'conducteur' (a tram manager, so to speak). You're supposed to enter the vehicle only through the doors near the driver or the conductor, other doors are exit only.

Quote:
There is a common sense in Germany, that open systems (and all U-Bahnen and Stadtbahnen are so) should calculate with a percentage of 3 to max. 5% fare dodgers. BVG has regular controls. The amount of controls depends on the part of fare dodgers compared to all controlled people. If it is high, controls get more and vice versa. At the moment fare dodging is no big problem in Berlin. Of cause it depends on the daytime and the location of control.
In Amsterdam (GVB) and Rotterdam (RET) the amount of fare dodgers has decreased significantly after the subway stations were closed off with gates. Both RET and GVB saw the amount of fare dodgers drop from over 10% to under 2%. The CEO of RET said that they were raking in an additional € 60.000 euro's each day solely from people who are no longer dodging fares.

3% to 5% is an acceptable score for an open system, definitely! Appearantly the BVG/SBB way to fight fare dodging is effective enough, I would have expected higher numbers.

My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?
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Old July 30th, 2014, 11:27 PM   #895
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1,9% even in trams with free access? I think Amsterdam metro is a closed system meanwhile, so 1,9% is a good value.
The trams in Amsterdam have controlled access. There are ticket gates installed at each door.
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Old July 31st, 2014, 10:30 AM   #896
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My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?
I don´t know for S-Bahn, this could be true. Regarding BVG, fare-dodging is common in Kreuzberg, Neukölln where at weekends a lot of parties are going on. During rush-hours the number of fare-dodgers is not very high, because commuters pay. Also daytime tourists do well.

Access in busses is controled by the driver. Of cause during rush-hours this is not easy. Tramway has no controled access like Amsterdam, so they have to control like U-Bahn.

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Old August 4th, 2014, 10:58 AM   #897
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Quote:
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By the way, the S-Bahn has never been a 'Stadtbahn'. It was originally the 'Stadtschnellbahn' (urban rapid rail), but obviously SS has other connotations in Germany. In Germany 'Stadtbahn' is mainly used to describe light rail systems that combine underground metro sections with trams.
In Berlin, and to the confusion of many, the Stadtbahn specifically refers to the elevated stretch of track between Charlottenburg in the west and Ostbahnhof in the east.

It carries not only S-Bahn but also normal rail services (Regionalbahn, ICE etc.).
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Old August 4th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #898
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My guess is that most fare dodging happens on the ring line and the lines inbetween such as S5 between Ostkreuz and Westkreuz, as the trains run highly frequent and stop quite often?
Yep! The ring line is probably where the fare dodgers live more freely. There are just too many people, too many platforms and too many trains to take care of, so it's not as easy checking tickets as it is at Rosenthaler Platz, for example.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 02:30 PM   #899
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I found fare dodging in Berlin to be scarily easy. I thought there would be conductors on the S-Bahn, and I thought there would be ticket gates on the U-Bahn, but I was very wrong. Hamburg was exactly the same. In Berlin I was mainly using the Stadtbahn line from Ostkreuz.

I'm too used to here in Glasgow where every equivalent U-Bahn/S-Bahn station in the city has ticket gates, and while the further out stations don't, we still have ticket conductors very visible in the trains.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 02:33 PM   #900
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The only thing that mitigates fare dodging in Berlin a bit is that monthly subscriptions are very cheap compared to the price of single rides or day passes to cover the same trips, so people who use transit often and are not inclined to fare dodge all the time probably buy these subscriptions and are therefore covered in situations where they might be tempted (like a short s-Bahn ride late at night on Saturday).
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