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Old October 30th, 2014, 06:18 PM   #961
Wilhem275
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Same for me... the thrust from the EU to complete the opening of markets is weakening, and old monopolies are doing anything they can to avoid competition.

Now we're stuck halfway: we still don't have serious competition, but the old national operators are no more under government control. The worst of both systems...
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Old October 30th, 2014, 06:57 PM   #962
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Aren't all national railway operators still owned by the national government?
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Old October 30th, 2014, 07:37 PM   #963
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Aren't all national railway operators still owned by the national government?
Mostly, yes, but they operate as private enterprises whose shares are wholly own by the government, instead of operating as government agencies (there is a big difference on both).
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Old December 14th, 2014, 07:46 AM   #964
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Today M5 tram route extends to Central station, map from urbanrail.net:



And timelapse:

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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:29 AM   #965
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Promotion of U5 construction in Legoland Berlin:
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berli...,29228844.html

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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:33 AM   #966
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what will be further extensions of Berlin's tram network?
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Old December 14th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #967
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I think they want to extend the new line to Hauptbahnhof to U-Bahnhof Turmstrasse.....
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Old December 14th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #968
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They should build a tram line on Kurfuerstandam and get rid of all nasty buses there, between Uhlandstraße and the city fair.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #969
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Why is there a single track in front of Hbf? And what are the structures being built on its side?

The service is active but BVG maps are still outdated, this is not my Berlin
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Old December 14th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Why is there a single track in front of Hbf?
Looks temporary until a definitive tram stop, a big bad-ass one, is built.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 04:13 PM   #971
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Quote:
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Looks temporary until a definitive tram stop, a big bad-ass one, is built.
That was my best guess as well, but now I looked at GMaps at it's clear what's going on: the path of "S21" tunnel is visible (and this makes the news as well!) and that final tram stop is directly over it, so they are building an interchange at the crossing.


https://maps.google.nl/maps?ll=52.52...00284&t=k&z=19

This is my Berlin


S21 is clearly recognizable up to Perleberger Brücke, and its bend also gives an idea of the location of U5 underground between the new tunnel and the railway trench (just before it enters its tunnel).
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:20 PM   #972
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Quote:
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They should build a tram line on Kurfuerstandam and get rid of all nasty buses there, between Uhlandstraße and the city fair.
Or better to extend the U1...
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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:56 AM   #973
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Quote:
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Why is there a single track in front of Hbf? And what are the structures being built on its side?

The service is active but BVG maps are still outdated, this is not my Berlin
It was politics to force the inaugration of tram to Hbf this december. It went very fast and because of single-track only line 5 is going to Hbf. That´s why there is no real update in maps. building the S21 took that long, that there was not enough time to keep the concrete of the shelters for the new Station ready. The new tram-stop at Hbf probably will be an eye-catcher in contradiction to the surrounding buildings built at present.

At the moment BVG and DBAG talk about extension of U1 from Warschauer Straße to Ostkreuz but I would not take this for serious. At least it´s allowed to talk about U-Bahn-extensions that´s new.

Personally I think no further tram-project is really necessary, besides deviation of line 21 at Ostkreuz and a link between Adlershof and Schöneweide. The intention is to build a new tram-depot there to substitute the Niederschöneweide and Köpenick depots. They are listed buildings from around 1900 and do not meet the expectations for modern maintainment.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #974
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Well, you already answered another question I had: if the tram tracks are now complete between Nordbhf and Chausseestr...

U1 to Ostkreuz... well, it's the first time I think about it. All talks in the past were focused on an extension to the North (at least over the S-Bahnhof or even to U5 Frankurter Tor). But in fact the tram is already doing that and connecting Ostkreuz gives a different meaning to the line. Construction is also much easier.
On the other hand, it probably means that it will never be extended anywhere; which, let's face it, is its destiny anyway, so...
It's a new concept for me, but the idea is not bad. I must think more about it, but I would probably support it.

A friend told me about a fanta-plan for a large extension of M10 to Moabit, Charlottenburg, Wilmersdorf and Kreuzberg, to create a sort of "Innerer Ring" to link areas more "central" than the peripheric Hundekopf.
Very ambitious and very unlikely to happen. But I think it would conflict with U7 for most of its course. Probably it would be just enough to go across Moabit and reach Charlottenburg station.


About Ostkreuz, how far is the progress of the eastern flyover (S5/S3), and of the Ring-Stadtbahn curve?
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 01:00 PM   #975
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The local press is reporting about plans for extending U1 to Westkreuz nexto the plans for Ostkreuz.
So the line would get 3 more stations, Adenauer Platz, Kracauer Platz and Westkreuz for the direction West. Adenauer Platz would be an interchange station for the line 7. The tunnel for this station had already been build in 1978. The raugh costs were caculated for beeing about 120Mio€.

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Berliner Zeitung
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Old December 16th, 2014, 08:07 AM   #976
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The local press is reporting about plans for extending U1 to Westkreuz nexto the plans for Ostkreuz.
The Ostkreuz-thing is at least something official from DBAG, BVG and Senat. But it even has not the character of a feasability-study, far away from ready planning. The other extensions mentioned have already have been denied by BVG. It´s likely that the article is just a joke, because no one is named personally, it´s called "planners of BVG". Something stupid journalism.

What we do miss here and what is necessary is to have a Nahverkehrsplan, something making studies about public-transport for the next 10 to 15 years, including tram, bus and U-Bahn, S-Bahn. EU-Regulation 1370 is based on plans like that, so for me it´s still unclear why no one matches to install such plan in Berlin.

Until that everybody is allowed to present ideas and we will do nothing.

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Old December 16th, 2014, 11:37 PM   #977
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Quote:
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What we do miss here and what is necessary is to have a Nahverkehrsplan, something making studies about public-transport for the next 10 to 15 years, including tram, bus and U-Bahn, S-Bahn. EU-Regulation 1370 is based on plans like that, so for me it´s still unclear why no one matches to install such plan in Berlin.

Until that everybody is allowed to present ideas and we will do nothing.
I agree with you.

It is interesting to note how these -real or fantasy- proposals are envisioning a much more definitive shape of the city, different from past plans which were designed for a possibly limitless expansion of the network.

Bringing (in fantasy...) U1 to Frankfurter Tor meant other possible extensions in the North-East of the city.
Bringing U1 to Ostkreuz means that U1 will probably just end there until a wide-scale change happens.

A more realistic approach, probably.


The extension to Westkreuz is not stupid, that area of the city is poorly connected with the Ring (which works much less than in the eastern half).
Also, most of it can be built with cut-and-cover, avoiding the mess made with U5...


A question about Ostkreuz: I knew that the plan for the "S9 curve" was to fit it with complete platforms (while in the old days only one direction was served). Now I look at the trackplans and I see that platforms are not going to be built. What is the actual plan?

I mean, people from S9 can still change in Treptower Park, not a big deal, but the line runs just there... looks like a missed connection.
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; December 16th, 2014 at 11:45 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:56 AM   #978
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Quote:
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The extension to Westkreuz is not stupid, that area of the city is poorly connected with the Ring (which works much less than in the eastern half).
Also, most of it can be built with cut-and-cover, avoiding the mess made with U5....
Cut-and-cover will be a difficult thing in cities meanwhile. I would not blame TBM for the expensive U5, it´s additionally a matter of building the stations at the location near Spree-river itself. TBM is something not more or less complicated than in other cities in Berlin. I agree that cut-and-cover would be cheaper but it is only suitable for extensions like U8 to Märkisches Viertel or U2 to Pankow-Kirche, more likely in the outkirts of Berlin. There is a regulation from Berlin-council, that pumping groundwater in Berlin has to be kept to the absolute minimum. Imho this is exaggerated but it is like it is.

Anyway, Westkreuz-extension is not stupid if it would go along Kudamm to Halensee, then turn north and reach the S-Bahn at the Ringbahn-level, where is space foressen since the 1920s for an additional platform-hall. That would give the opportunity to save bus-service on Kudamm.
The plans in the newspaper neglected all this already done negotiations, showing no station between Adenauerplatz and Uhlandstraße. That means, someone obviously had no clue about subway-planning and offered this to the newspaper.

Yes, S9-curve at Ostkreuz will not have platforms. originally even the northern curve and the southern curve had platforms in all directions. The side platforms have been closed long ago, beacause they only fitted for 4-car-trains. The island platform was scrapped because it is not possible to create a modern platform with tolerable space between train and platform there. The only disadvantage is for passengers from Marzahn, Strausberg to change for S9, they have to go to Warschauer Straße and then back.

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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:23 AM   #979
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cut-and-cover is not necessarily cheaper. What makes subway expensive are stations, especially cavern-like ones.

Barcelona, for instance, uses a cheap design in some lines, with larger TBMs that have space for two tracks, one over other, and space for platforms within the tunnel bore itself.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #980
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I agree that cut-and-cover would be cheaper but it is only suitable for extensions like U8 to Märkisches Viertel or U2 to Pankow-Kirche, more likely in the outkirts of Berlin.
...or U3 to Mexicoplatz, which is surprisingly still missing. Probably not a priority, but come on, it's almost there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Anyway, Westkreuz-extension is not stupid if it would go along Kudamm to Halensee, then turn north and reach the S-Bahn at the Ringbahn-level, where is space foressen since the 1920s for an additional platform-hall.
Which is exactly what I realized by looking where this "Kracauerplatz" is - just in the wrong place. You can't just abandon a corridor halfway of it, loads would be uneven.


The S9 stop at Ostkreuz... back in 2006 I won a bet against my friends, they didn't believe that the train would have stopped only in one direction somewhere I have some photos taken at the old elevated S9 platform, the metal bridge and all the buildings were already derelict, very Ostalgie.

Thank you as usual for all this competence. I miss the city and its rails so much, and the day I'll get back there you'll have a free beer
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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