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Old January 15th, 2016, 06:54 PM   #1141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Let's calculate it better. Falkensee - Alex:
- RE 27'
- RB 38'
- S-Bahn hypothesis: 7' Falkensee - Spandau + 34' Spandau - Alex = 41'
It takes currently 35' for an RB from Falkensee to Alexanderplatz and not 38'. And it's 9' from Falkensee to Spandau, which adds to the 34' the S-Bahn takes from Alexanderplatz to Spandau.
Therefore a potential Falkensee S-Bahn would take 43' to Alexanderplatz vs 35' of an RB. That's 8 minutes slower. Quite a lot for that short distance. The calculation is even less advantageous for the S-Bahn at other station on that line. The S-Bahn is simply the wrong means of transportation to serve Falkensee and other suburban towns around Greater Berlin as it was made for the densely populated urban areas of the city.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 08:51 PM   #1142
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The S-Bahn is simply the wrong means of transportation to serve Falkensee and other suburban towns around Greater Berlin as it was made for the densely populated urban areas of the city.
Bernau has 36.547 inhabitants, Falkensee 41.777. Meanwhile people living in Bernau, Zepernick and Röntgental want to have a 10-Min.-headway of S-Bahn, they don´t want to run additional RE between Bernau and Berlin. If S-Bahn would be the "wrong" transportation I would wonder about this.

As Wilhelm275 said, basically things would change if they would put a 10-Min frequency on planned S-Bahn to Falkensee. The disadvantage would be for Brieselang and Nauen as they probalby would operate an hourly service for them. S-Bahn to Brieselang with 20-Minute seems to be definetely far from city like Strausberg S-Bahn is.

Last edited by tunnel owl; January 15th, 2016 at 09:11 PM.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 09:00 PM   #1143
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Originally Posted by vandiss View Post
Obviously, the commuter could change from S-Bahn to Regional at Spandau, if there was an agreeable connection time, but then they are at the mercy of timetables/delays etc.
I have to quote that they are already at the mercy of timetables with RE/RB now as there is a interference with freight-trains going over from BAR to Hamburg and with IC/ICE-trains. Additionally Spandau is a mess, if it comes to RE/RB trains ending there.

Last edited by tunnel owl; January 15th, 2016 at 09:12 PM.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 09:10 PM   #1144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandiss View Post
Interesting trying to work out where they were taken....

Link here

This was taken near nowadays eastern end of regional-train platform (exactly on the bridge over Friedirchstraße) looking eastward. On the left you can see the transfer-corridor between S-Bahn and U-Bahn, in that time it was only an exit to street-level. The building on the right is meanwhile covered by the extension of the IHZ( international trade center) complex.

There is only one non-electrified track for Interzone-trains, the other one was abandoned.

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Old January 15th, 2016, 09:31 PM   #1145
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I took Alex for comparison because it's the most distant interesting destination along the Stadtbahn, meaning that the S-Bahn will have the greatest disadvantage compared to RE/RB trains.
Before Alex -> time travel difference decreases
Beyond Alex -> Hic sunt leones (= who cares)

As for the origin, I think it's wise to divide the matter in two cases: Falkensee will keep its RE trains anyway, while Seegefeld and Albrechtshof will see their entire RB offer replaced with the S-Bahn.

We can't compare just travel times, because in a urban/suburban environment higher frequecy is the real plus (and the real advantage of an S service).

In this case the frequency advantage makes it a good option. Today those stations have only one RB per hour to the Stadtbahn, meaning an average waiting time of 30'. With the S-Bahn at 20' frequency that waiting time drops to 10', meaning that the average traveller is spared 20'. Even if the ride to Alex is 10' longer (and it's not!) the total time would still improve, and the situation is even better for any destination before Alex; not to mention the improvement to those stops reached only by S-Bahn.

The other RB serving those stations calls at Spandau and then takes the tunnel. With the S-Bahn Seegefeld and Albrechtshof will lose a direct connection to Jungfernheide, Potsdamer Platz and Südkreuz.
They'll need to change in Spandau but they'll get 3x connections to Jungfernheide and 2x to Südkreuz, which sounds fine to me (1 link per hour in a suburban setting is really too poor). Südkreuz will be also reachable via Westkreuz.

To all this, we must add the advantage of having a frequent service inside the Spandau district, including more stops inside the city (I see space for at least two more stops). And the capacity that opens up on the main line to Hamburg.

Quote:
The S-Bahn is simply the wrong means of transportation to serve Falkensee and other suburban towns around Greater Berlin as it was made for the densely populated urban areas of the city.
Falkensee is much closer to Berlin's center than most of the existing S-Bahn termini... and it's much more "Berlin" than, let's say, Königs Wusterhausen or Strausberg.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 09:57 PM   #1146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
The disadvantage would be for Brieselang and Nauen as they probalby would operate an hourly service for them. S-Bahn to Brieselang with 20-Minute seems to be definetely far from city like Strausberg S-Bahn is.
To be honest, I'd build the S-Bahn terminus in Finkenkrug, because it's still part of the urban area of Falkensee, but keeping the RE stop only in Falkensee.
From what I see, the extra space is fully reserved up to Finkenkrug (including bridges), so this may already be the plan.

This would give a very good covering of the entire Falkensee area, but with a disadvantage for those travelling from Finkenkrug in the direction of Nauen (they should take an S to Falkensee and then travel back with RE). Something similar to the isolated terminus of Teltow Stadt.
It would be interesting to run an inquiry on how many people actually travel between Finkenkrug and Nauen/Brieselang, compared to the advantage of better travels to Spandau and Berlin.
They could keep both S and RE stops, but it seems a bit of an overkill for Finkenkrug

Beyond Finkenkrug, apart from being too distant, the S-Bahn should also cross BAR and Falkenahgener Kreuz, which would require expensive flyovers.
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Last edited by Wilhem275; January 15th, 2016 at 10:03 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 01:56 PM   #1147
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
To be honest, I'd build the S-Bahn terminus in Finkenkrug, because it's still part of the urban area of Falkensee, but keeping the RE stop only in Falkensee.
From what I see, the extra space is fully reserved up to Finkenkrug (including bridges), so this may already be the plan...

...Beyond Finkenkrug, apart from being too distant, the S-Bahn should also cross BAR and Falkenahgener Kreuz, which would require expensive flyovers.
Space is reserved for S-bahn track until Finkenkrug, it´s even planned to have an additional stop between Finkenkrug and Falkensee, which is useful now but does not fit into existing service patterns. As I mentioned before, people from Bernau wish to have 10-Min-headway and there is an actual inquiry how to do that without much investment. So we should take into account what it would be like to run trains every 10 minutes to Falkensee and every 20 minutes to Finkenkrug. Brieselang would make flyovers necessary and it has nearly the same distance from city like Strausberg-Nord. This is really to far for this S-Bahn-system.

Furthermore additional stops for S-Bahn to falkensee are planned at Nauener Straße and Hackbuschstraße. A S-Bahn to Falkensee gives the chance to have existing stations relocated and new stations build as the illfated Seegefeld-station has not the optimal location anymore e. g.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 02:43 PM   #1148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Bernau has 36.547 inhabitants, Falkensee 41.777. Meanwhile people living in Bernau, Zepernick and Röntgental want to have a 10-Min.-headway of S-Bahn, they don´t want to run additional RE between Bernau and Berlin. If S-Bahn would be the "wrong" transportation I would wonder about this.
Bernau is significantly closer to Berlin to begin with. Bernau is furthermore a compact town with an urban core. Its population lives almost entirely within walking distance of the station. Falkensee on the other hand is a spread-out suburb with very little density. People who moved there send out the clear message that they don't intend to use public transport.

Bernau is as far out as an S-Bahn can reasonably extended to. But even this place doesn't justify a 10 min headway. It barely fills the capacities provided by the current services. With the S-Bahn still being short on rolling stock, more services for Bernau are simply a pipe dream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
As Wilhelm275 said, basically things would change if they would put a 10-Min frequency on planned S-Bahn to Falkensee. The disadvantage would be for Brieselang and Nauen as they probalby would operate an hourly service for them. S-Bahn to Brieselang with 20-Minute seems to be definetely far from city like Strausberg S-Bahn is.
There won't be a 10 min frequency to Bernau and there won't be one to Falkensee either. A 20 min headway is the best that Brandenburg is willing to pay for except for the services to its capital. And I can't see that this will ever change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
We can't compare just travel times, because in a urban/suburban environment higher frequecy is the real plus (and the real advantage of an S service).

In this case the frequency advantage makes it a good option. Today those stations have only one RB per hour to the Stadtbahn, meaning an average waiting time of 30'. With the S-Bahn at 20' frequency that waiting time drops to 10', meaning that the average traveller is spared 20'. Even if the ride to Alex is 10' longer (and it's not!) the total time would still improve, and the situation is even better for any destination before Alex; not to mention the improvement to those stops reached only by S-Bahn.
A 30 min headway for RB service would induce an average waiting time of 15 min. Considering that these services would be 8 min faster than an S-Bahn, there would still be a 3 min advantage. And this calculation only applies to those who drop by randomly. At headways greater than 10 or 12 min travellers usually reduce their waiting time by adjusting their routine to the time table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
To all this, we must add the advantage of having a frequent service inside the Spandau district, including more stops inside the city (I see space for at least two more stops). And the capacity that opens up on the main line to Hamburg.
More stops add to the travel time of the S-Bahn and make it even slower and less attractive. Additional capacities for fast services can be provided in many ways. That doesn't necessarily have to be additional tracks between Spandau and Falkensee where houses need to make way for such a widening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Falkensee is much closer to Berlin's center than most of the existing S-Bahn termini... and it's much more "Berlin" than, let's say, Königs Wusterhausen or Strausberg.
Two wrongs don't justify another wrong. Neither Wusterhausen nor Strausberg warrant S-Bahn services. These two and its adjacent towns would be better served by RB services which would be a whopping 15 to 20 min faster in central Berlin in either cases.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #1149
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New trains for S-Bahn Berlin by Stadler/Siemens:


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Außenansicht by Petro Molitain, on Flickr


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Seitenansicht by Petro Molitain, on Flickr


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Führerstand by Petro Molitain, on Flickr


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Fahrgastraum 1 by Petro Molitain, on Flickr


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Fahrgastraum 2 by Petro Molitain, on Flickr


Neue Züge für die Berliner S-Bahn - Fahrgastraum 3 by Petro Molitain, on Flickr
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Old January 28th, 2016, 05:45 PM   #1150
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Are these in any way official pictures?

Because they all seem quite nice except for the front exterior. And I'll hold off on totally condemning that after the ICE IV.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 07:51 PM   #1151
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These new trains for the Berliner S-Bahn are just great inside and outside but the front is horrible....
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Old January 28th, 2016, 09:07 PM   #1152
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The copyright of pictures refers to Stadler Pankow GmbH, so they should be official.

I just don't understand the interior layout. First of all, why going back to two cabs, which seems a great waste of space.

Then, it seems from the pictures there is a lot of open space, on both sides of the gangway and near the first door (last picture).
I like the idea of the continuous open space around the gangway, but I think there's some waste of space around cabs and doors.

Overall it seems there's less space than in BR481:


And this is the 480 for comparison:
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Old January 28th, 2016, 09:32 PM   #1153
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Neither Wusterhausen nor Strausberg warrant S-Bahn services. These two and its adjacent towns would be better served by RB services which would be a whopping 15 to 20 min faster in central Berlin in either cases.
Both Königs Wusterhausen and Strausberg offer an hourly RB or RE service to the center of Berlin - next to S-Bahn trains.
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Old January 28th, 2016, 11:56 PM   #1154
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Am I the only one who thinks the front of the Stadler/Siemens train looks really cool and futuristic?
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Old January 29th, 2016, 12:15 AM   #1155
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I like the design, inside and outside. However, the length confuses me a bit. Is demand on SB-B low enough for just two car units (running in multiple) to suffice? All those intermediate cabs seem like a waste of space and money to me...

If I look at suburban networks of other cities, I mostly see 4-car units running in multiple, or even longer single units. London Overground recently had their 378's lengthened to 5 cars, and the commuter railroads around London (such as South West Trains and Thameslink) run in 10- or even 12 car compositions throughout the day. The new Thameslink trains (Class 700) only come in 8 car and 12 car compositions.

Also: without any interior gangways between the units I can imagine this does not help with passenger distribution. Wouldn't a walk-through design such as on the Typ H trains found on the U-Bahn be better to help distribute passengers across the train?
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Old January 29th, 2016, 12:20 AM   #1156
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Isn't the 2-car train on the render just for illustrative purposes? I seriously doubt they would actually order 2-car trains for the S-bahn.
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Old January 29th, 2016, 12:45 AM   #1157
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the front of the Stadler/Siemens train looks really cool and futuristic?
No, to be honest I'm beginning to like it. It needed a second view.

As I said earlier, I'd be curious to see what they'd look like in BVG yellow.

Now that I look again, it seems that the profile picture shows a slightly different paintjob (look at the black strip on the cab's side).


I've never seen, in Berlin, a train of less than 4 cars. And they're much rare, anyway, probably related to shortages in the worst moment of crisis.
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Old January 29th, 2016, 01:02 AM   #1158
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Isn't the 2-car train on the render just for illustrative purposes? I seriously doubt they would actually order 2-car trains for the S-bahn.
They ordered 85 4-car trains and 21 2-car trains.
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Old January 29th, 2016, 01:19 AM   #1159
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Ah, thanks. 4-car trains make more sense.

Still, having just two car trains seems a bit odd. This gives me the idea that SB-B are planning to use those to strengthen rush-hour services, and leave them otherwise idling in a yard?
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Old January 29th, 2016, 01:29 AM   #1160
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Am I the only one who thinks the front of the Stadler/Siemens train looks really cool and futuristic?
You're definitely not the only one. I really like this futuristic look. It fits well into the current European trend. Look at the new Hamburg, Warsaw or Amsterdam subway cars.
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