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Old May 3rd, 2010, 11:45 PM   #861
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Annoying whiny people should move away from Manhattan and move to the suburbs where they can disrupt progress there
maybe they should mobe to Nebraska...
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Old May 4th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #862
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http://nymag.com/arts/architecture/features/65749/



Colossus
Jean Nouvel’s Tower Verre was going to be the biggest thing to hit the midtown skyline since the Empire State Building. Then the city told him to chop off 200 feet. Scoffs the French architect: Why is Manhattan, of all places, afraid of heights?




Nouvel's tower (seen on previous page, and above in red) was to go nose-to-nose with the Empire State Building; instead, it will be 200 feet shorter.

By Justin Davidson
May 2, 2010


Quote:...
[B][I]
We have to restudy it, without starting from zero,” Nouvel says. “I don’t think we have to revisit the essentials of the structure.” It may still be a twisting, sloping needle, enfolding new MoMA galleries in its base and rising to apartments with great glass walls slashed by tilting columns. Only now it can reach no higher than 1,050 feet....
In fact, the City's order requires him to reproduce the same basic design but at the reduced height. See below:



The City Planning approvals that were enacted are based upon a design "which conform in all respects" to the plan as presented to CPC in 2009 ...

C 090431 ZSM [pdf]

IN THE MATTER OF an application submitted by W2005/Hines West Fifty-Third Realty, LLC
RESOLVED, by the City Planning Commission, pursuant to Sections 197-c and 200 of the New an application submitted by W2005/Hines West Fifty-Third Realty, LLC pursuant to Sections 197-c and 201 of the New York City Charter for the grant of a special permit pursuant to Sections 81-212 and 74-79 of the Zoning Resolution to allow the transfer of 136,000 square feet of floor area from property located at 1 West 54th Street (Block 1270, Lot 34) that is occupied by a landmark building (University Club) to property located at 53 West 53rd Street (Block 1269, Lots 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 20, 30, 58, 66, 69, and 165) to facilitate the development of a mixed use building, in C6-6, C5-P, C5-2.5 and C5-3 Districts, within the Special Midtown District (partially within the Preservation and Fifth Avenue Subdistricts) Borough of Manhattan, Community District 5 is approved subject to the following conditions ...

1. The property that is the subject of this application (C 090431 ZSM) shall be developed in accordance with:
(a) Plans prepared by SLCE Architects filed with this application (“Certification Plans”), modified as necessary to reflect a reduction of building height to a height of no more than 1050 feet, and to be consistent in all respects with the Modification Notes annexed hereto as Exhibit A, which plans are incorporated in this resolution ...
2. The Department of Buildings shall not issue any Permit for the Subject Development unless and until the Chair has certified that the Department has received a single set of consolidated and revised plans which conform in all respects to the provisions of Section 1 of this resolution.
C 090432 ZSM [pdf]

IN THE MATTER OF an application submitted by W2005/Hines West Fifty-Third Realty, LLC

EXHIBIT A
MODIFICATION NOTES
September 9th, 2009

1. Height & Overall Building Form

The height of the building shall be limited to a maximum of 1,050 feet, including all permitted obstructions. The form of the building shall be in accordance with the Approved Plans and the Supplemental Plans, as set forth in the Special Permit Resolution, as determined by the Chair pursuant to the procedure set forth in the Restrictive Declaration, and subject to the “Limitations” set forth below.
For purposes of the above, the term “in accordance” shall mean that the “Key Architectural and Design Features” enumerated below, and also as defined under the Restrictive Declaration, are fully reflected and incorporated in the building design, subject only to deviations as are consistent with the scale and relative proportions of such Key Architectural and Design Features as shown in the Approved Plans and Supplemental Plans.

The “Key Architectural and Design Features” are as follows:

 Sloped planes which are in number, relative location, orientation, and proportion to the overall building form as shown in Supplemental Plans Z-21, Z-25, Z-26, Z-28.

 A tower top with three distinct asymmetrical peaks, with each peak of varying height and shape, tapering to a narrow edge at the top. The tallest peak shall contain a vertex with an interior angle no greater than 27 degrees. The foregoing shall be in accordance with Supplemental Plan Z-27.

 A “Diagrid”, defined as an asymmetrical, non-orthogonal web pattern, including nodes with radial spokes. The Diagrid shall extend from the top of the building to the sidewalk, and shall be expressed in metal elements projecting beyond the exterior of the building over a curtain wall. The foregoing shall be in accordance with Supplemental Plans Z-21, Z-25 and Z-26

 Exterior walls constructed with a combination of non-mirrored insulated glass and painted aluminum elements.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 12:33 AM   #863
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Nice and sharp article. Some nice quotes from Nouvel, like:

"To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism."

and

"A city’s identity is not just something you preserve. It’s something you create too.”

It's so true!

And midtown afraid of verticality, yeah we discussed that here... Still frustrating, this had to become an manhattan masterpiece...
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Old May 4th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #864
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"To erect a tall building is to proclaim one’s faith in the future, the skyline is a seismograph of optimism."

Damn... Can you believe that this man isn't allowed to build anything major in his own country!
This quote should be both his epitaph and this forum's moto.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:35 AM   #865
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From the Dutch part of SSC;
Way too heavy.. 'busy'.. post-mod. Modern flies best - light & 'open'.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 09:50 AM   #866
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if these fake new yorkers don't like the skyline, they can go back to where they came from. This is the city you won't sunlight go to the country. Get a horse if you don't like taxi by a farm house if you hate skyscrapers. 1000 feet is the new standard. Countries like China and Dubai are where we was in the 1930's. 75 years from now they be us, where will we be. Let get back to building tall ass building even if for no reason.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 02:52 AM   #867
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The NIMBYs in NY want the New York of the 1880s with "carriage horses and a view of the First Presbyterian steeple from beneath their gables". Maybe they'd also like coal smoke and the smells from the meatpackers and brewers of 1st Ave. wafting into their well-appointed salons...
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Old May 19th, 2010, 03:19 AM   #868
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if these fake new yorkers don't like the skyline, they can go back to where they came from. This is the city you won't sunlight go to the country. Get a horse if you don't like taxi by a farm house if you hate skyscrapers. 1000 feet is the new standard. Countries like China and Dubai are where we was in the 1930's. 75 years from now they be us, where will we be. Let get back to building tall ass building even if for no reason.
That isn't going to happen, because NY developers, leaders and citizens appear has lost the ambition to compete in skyscraper race. Anyway, with Dubai and its 20+ supertalls and Shanghai with its 600+m tower how could you ever compete. NY has 1 supertall to roof, just 1. Ridiculous, Dubai has 20 or so. No 600+ will ever be built in manhattan, ever due to quality of life issues, space constraints, planning conditions, airport restrictions, and FAA restrictions.

Pity, but city's come and city's go...rise and decline. Manhattan is now mature, and the focus is on other areas such as parks, transit, etc. The good thing is that even older alpha cities can see revivals and building booms after years of stagnation - i.e, London. Thus, there is hope for NY to turn around in the distant future and wow the world again, but it is Shanghai's turn to shine now and we must all just accept and bow to it. Shanghai tower is the future - what the ESB was to us, but NY is now the past and is becoming a has been city. Even Doha has more real supertalls for god's sake -- wake up -- NY no longer cares about impressing the world and is too broke to care. There is no developer willing to take such a risk here, there is no drive to make NY the leading city of the 21st century -- that will pass to Seoul or Shanghai I believe.

Last edited by aquablue; May 19th, 2010 at 03:27 AM.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 03:28 AM   #869
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It really is a missed opportunity. This will be a great building, but not quite the epic one it should be. In terms of air and light concerns, I couldn't think of a lesser offender than this tower. This wasn't recently a lowrise part of Manhattan, either. Are these relocated suburbanites? The community focuses on the sheer height and not the design. Air and light? Bloomberg is much more of a bomb compared to this and I don't remember such a controversy there. Go figure.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 01:12 PM   #870
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
That isn't going to happen, because NY developers, leaders and citizens appear has lost the ambition to compete in skyscraper race. Anyway, with Dubai and its 20+ supertalls and Shanghai with its 600+m tower how could you ever compete. NY has 1 supertall to roof, just 1. Ridiculous, Dubai has 20 or so. No 600+ will ever be built in manhattan, ever due to quality of life issues, space constraints, planning conditions, airport restrictions, and FAA restrictions.

Pity, but city's come and city's go...rise and decline. Manhattan is now mature, and the focus is on other areas such as parks, transit, etc. The good thing is that even older alpha cities can see revivals and building booms after years of stagnation - i.e, London. Thus, there is hope for NY to turn around in the distant future and wow the world again, but it is Shanghai's turn to shine now and we must all just accept and bow to it. Shanghai tower is the future - what the ESB was to us, but NY is now the past and is becoming a has been city. Even Doha has more real supertalls for god's sake -- wake up -- NY no longer cares about impressing the world and is too broke to care. There is no developer willing to take such a risk here, there is no drive to make NY the leading city of the 21st century -- that will pass to Seoul or Shanghai I believe.
I would rather live in NYC a real city with just one real supertall as you mentioned, than in a fake city like Dubai with its so many supertalls. A city and its urban feeling isnt made of supertalls, its more in the depth.

I was in NYC in march and was amazed by the city and come on the buildings in NYC are still giants.

And you forgot one thing, the new WTC is gonna be one massive complex, nearly 4 real supertalls side by side on a 16 acre site, with the 200m+ giants spread all over downtown, the upcoming 99 church and 56 leonard will add to it. If you compare NYC downtown with Shanghais Pudong, NYC dont needs to be ashamed of anything.

There is still so much to come, like the hudson yards project, 15 Penn, this one, the two extell giants, one madison park and so on. IMHO NYC still kick it and who knows what is beeing planned what we still dont know.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 01:42 PM   #871
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so so true
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Old May 19th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #872
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You know, I think this tower looks better at 1,050ft than 1,250ft.... when I see this tower, I don't think 'size'. I think 'beauty'. Really, I think this design is absolutely stunning and one of the best I've seen.

Chrysler is quite stunning too but discrete whereas ESB is nice from the more slender angles (across Midtown) but looks quite fat when viewed N-S. It's the same with a woman - for most guys (who are 6'+), a chick who is 5'11" may look quite tall.. but at 5'8" or 5'9" she'd be perfect

Tower Verre is at the perfect height I think.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 06:58 PM   #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
That isn't going to happen, because NY developers, leaders and citizens appear has lost the ambition to compete in skyscraper race. Anyway, with Dubai and its 20+ supertalls and Shanghai with its 600+m tower how could you ever compete. NY has 1 supertall to roof, just 1. Ridiculous, Dubai has 20 or so. No 600+ will ever be built in manhattan, ever due to quality of life issues, space constraints, planning conditions, airport restrictions, and FAA restrictions.

Pity, but city's come and city's go...rise and decline. Manhattan is now mature, and the focus is on other areas such as parks, transit, etc. The good thing is that even older alpha cities can see revivals and building booms after years of stagnation - i.e, London. Thus, there is hope for NY to turn around in the distant future and wow the world again, but it is Shanghai's turn to shine now and we must all just accept and bow to it. Shanghai tower is the future - what the ESB was to us, but NY is now the past and is becoming a has been city. Even Doha has more real supertalls for god's sake -- wake up -- NY no longer cares about impressing the world and is too broke to care. There is no developer willing to take such a risk here, there is no drive to make NY the leading city of the 21st century -- that will pass to Seoul or Shanghai I believe.
just some points which are floating through my mind...

1) you can't compare NYC to shanghai...
2) NYC is still the financial capital of the world (together with london)
3) buildings don't' make a city
4) shanghai has a bright future, yes
5) does one 600m+ tower make a city better or even more powerful? just look at dubai.
6) "NYC is the past" - lol , it's like saying the U.S. are the past...
7) NYC has also experienced a buidling boom in the last decade
8) many cities have a beautiful skyline without any supertall
9) dubai, shanghai and other upcoming cities have to produce superlatives (f.e. supertalls) to catch the people's attention. NYC doesn't have to prove anything, same with HK. so according to your logic: if HK can't build a 600m+, or even a 500m+ building the city is broke, has no future lol .
10) i have the feeling you have never been to NYC...

but let's not argue anymore, everyone is entitled to his / her opinion.

here's a small updated list of all supertalls (U/C, App, Prop) in NYC:

U/C:

- 1WTC (418m roof, 541m spire)
- 157W. 57th St. (306m roof)

Approved:

- Tower Verre (320m roof - needs a redesign, will be built)
- 3WTC (349m roof, 378m spire - construction starting soon)
- 2WTC (390m roof, 414m spire, construction starting this summer)
- The Gira Sole (305m roof- when they finish the subway tunnel (soon) this will be U/C)
- Tishman Speyer Towers (336m x 2, on hold)

Proposed:

- 15 Penn Plaza (365m roof, currently in the approval phase)
- Midtown Towers (427m roof - aka One Manhattan West)
- Brookfield Properties Towers (370m roof, they need to build the platform first)
- New York Tower (305m roof)
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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:07 PM   #874
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I didnt point out China and Dubai because they have a lot of supertalls. I did it because in 40 years they won't see any point in building them. They did it in NYC because the price of land is so high but the price of the sky is free, into air right came into the picture. Now picture if the workers got paid like they did in the 30's, there'd be hundreds of supertalls here.

Let the market crash in another city first before we decide if NYC is done for.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 04:53 PM   #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
That isn't going to happen, because NY developers, leaders and citizens appear has lost the ambition to compete in skyscraper race. Anyway, with Dubai and its 20+ supertalls and Shanghai with its 600+m tower how could you ever compete. NY has 1 supertall to roof, just 1. Ridiculous, Dubai has 20 or so. No 600+ will ever be built in manhattan, ever due to quality of life issues, space constraints, planning conditions, airport restrictions, and FAA restrictions.

Pity, but city's come and city's go...rise and decline. Manhattan is now mature, and the focus is on other areas such as parks, transit, etc. The good thing is that even older alpha cities can see revivals and building booms after years of stagnation - i.e, London. Thus, there is hope for NY to turn around in the distant future and wow the world again, but it is Shanghai's turn to shine now and we must all just accept and bow to it. Shanghai tower is the future - what the ESB was to us, but NY is now the past and is becoming a has been city. Even Doha has more real supertalls for god's sake -- wake up -- NY no longer cares about impressing the world and is too broke to care. There is no developer willing to take such a risk here, there is no drive to make NY the leading city of the 21st century -- that will pass to Seoul or Shanghai I believe.
Dubai has this honour of 20 supertalls, but it still looks shit. Dubai will never look as good as New York. It's not a real city. I heard once that most of it's citizens are construction workers working on these supertalls that have no function whatsoever.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:22 AM   #876
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thats bull that it has to be 200ft shorter, its new york people! you dont like tall buildings? then here is a simple SIMPLE fix to that: MOVE OUT OF NEW YORK!
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:36 AM   #877
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I don't think that's why they chop it down its still pretty tall
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:49 AM   #878
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Dubai has this honour of 20 supertalls, but it still looks shit. Dubai will never look as good as New York. It's not a real city. I heard once that most of it's citizens are construction workers working on these supertalls that have no function whatsoever.
That's just not true. Dubai has a massive and growing port, airport, and are developing a diversified economy. People get too distracted by the glitzy towers without realizing that below is a city of 1.7 million that will have 5 million by 2030. And the construction workers live outside the city in company compounds.

But getting back to the topic, this tower attracted NIMBYs who are still furious over the Museum Tower that MoMA built over its air rights in the '80s. They drew the line at this one but what's crazy is that it will still be twice as tall as Museum Tower! The thinking is that some very powerful NY'ers that don't live in the neighborhood were against anything that would rival the ESB. Another Midtown supertall proposal 20 years ago met the same fate because it was much taller than the ESB.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 01:18 PM   #879
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Well guys, instead of complainig of a height reduction of 60M!!! we should rather be happy to see soemthing 320M!!!!!!! tall going up into the skyline.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 02:20 PM   #880
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indeed, 320m is great ....better than nothing
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