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Old July 26th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #361
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Chimaera, what is the stadium in your avatar?
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Old July 26th, 2008, 07:30 PM   #362
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Chimaera, what is the stadium in your avatar?
Haha, it's one of the many stadiums I designed myself
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Old July 26th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #363
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Awesome! Are you a professional architect? That's far beyond amateur level.
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Old July 26th, 2008, 07:52 PM   #364
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Awesome! Are you a professional architect? That's far beyond amateur level.
Thanks, but basically I'm just an amateur
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Old July 26th, 2008, 07:57 PM   #365
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Genk's Ultras?

LOL
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Old July 26th, 2008, 08:27 PM   #366
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Genk's Ultras?

when together... I think they will kick your ass
do not underestimate grannies
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Old July 29th, 2008, 03:32 PM   #367
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Respect to your countries for bidding for 2018 but can you guys really compete with this



Wembley Stadium.Photo by Sparks in the UK Forum
Rotterdam likes new wembley Feyenoord will build somthing like that.

only bigger

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Old July 29th, 2008, 05:36 PM   #368
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Rotterdam likes new wembley Feyenoord will build somthing like that.

only bigger
Build a billion euro stadium with no money on the bank
Even if they sell all the players they have now the wouldnt go to 5% of that money
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Old July 30th, 2008, 02:42 AM   #369
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Build a billion euro stadium with no money on the bank
Even if they sell all the players they have now the wouldnt go to 5% of that money
What a very short-sighted reaction. Probably from an already jealous Ajax or AZ fan?

But seriously: the Club Feyenoord will not build the new Feyenoord stadium "De Nieuwe Kuip" alone. Hardly any club pays all the costs for such a huge project, including the necessary infrastrcuture, by itself. Most likely a stadium development company will be created in which the Club, several founders and of course the City of Rotterdam will participate. So no players have to be sold to make the stadium development possible.

Take a look at the development of the Amsterdam ArenA. That is a good example of how the development could be organised. Also here big founders played an important part, of course Ajax put up money and also the city of Amsterdam contributed directly to the stadium development. And all of the infrastructure (subway, new railway station, new roads and even the parking garage, which is situated below the stadium) was funded outside of the stadium development. The City of Amsterdam, the Province of North-Holland and the national Government contributed exclusively to that.

It is most likely that a similar development will take place for realising the new Feyenoord Stadium "De Nieuwe Kuip". Feyenoords main part in this development will most likely be funded by selling the land where the amatures of Sportclub Feyenoord are playing and training.

That peace of land is worth quite a lot. Especially since the cost of a m2 has risen drastically over the years due to several developments already done in the area over the last 10 years. And for the City of Rotterdam, the new stadium IS THE ONLY driving force to redevelop this whole section of the south-east entrance to Rotterdam. Nothing else has such an impact which could make such a redevelopment possible.

This development (the new stadium) is also the driving force in uniting the separate entities Feyenoord professional foorball club, the Feyenoord Sportclub (the amature part) and the Stadium Feijenoord NV into one single, integrated organization. Remember that the Sportclub Feyenoord holds about 52% of the stocks of the current stadium, so they basically control the Stadium Feijenoord NV.

Now when the present Feyenoord stadium "De Kuip" was renovated in 1994, the City of Rotterdam did not contribute any money for free, contrary to what some have said. The 35 million Guilders the city contributed to the renovation budget was for the land on (which the current stadium stands) that the Stadium Feyenoord sold to the city. Part of the relatively high rental fee per year the Club pays to the Stadium has to do with "erfpacht", a form of land-lease. So this time the City should do their best, and all indications are that they are doing so. Redevelopment visions for the whole area from several landscaping architect firms have already been made public.

Of course the City did play a big part in upgrading the infrastructure with a tram-plus connection and the minor upgrade of the parking facilites, but that was not a very big amount of money. It can not be compared to the developments which took place around the Amsterdam ArenA area. These developments are much greater than the ones realised for the renovation of the Feyenoord Stadium in 1994.

All in all it is fair to say that the new stadium will be a fantastic venue. Especially since the main examples they are looking at are the Emirates Stadium of Arsenal, the Allianz Arena of München and the Reliant Stadium in Houston (especially for the large movable roof it has). And the stadium will for sure have a sliding pitch, just like The Gelredome in Arnhem (which was the first stadium in the world to combine a sliding pitch and a sliding roof into one stadium). That makes it commercially perfectly exploitable. Feyenoord now generates one of the lowest amounts per seat in het present stadium since commercial facilities are way too small and there is reasonably spoken no room for expanding these facilities. That would take away normal seats out of the stadium, and that is a no-go area for the Club.

It will certainly not cost 1 Billion Euro's, but of course it will not be cheap. It will be the largest stadium by far in the Netherlands with a minimum capacity of 80.000 seats (including a minimum of 7,000 business seats) and a minimum of 100 business units. But 150 to 200 is more likely. That makes it one of the largest stadiums in Europe.

All preperations to build this stadium, including all permits, will be based on a maximum capacity which could be achieved after an expansion (100,000 to 106,000). The dream of the current management is to "tie" with the capacity of the renovated Camp Nou. That might be "a bridge too far" but it shows they have a long term vision regarding which direction Feyenoord should be going within 10 years. If we are lucky, they will build the full scale version of the Stadium from the start. At the latest the stadium should be finished for the 2016-2017 season which starts in August 2016. So well in time for the WC-2018 if that was to be awarded to the joint Belgium-Netherlands bid.

Also the stadium complex will incorporate an ice-oval (400 meters official competition size) and several leasure facilities like a casino, restaurants, etc. It is going to be a major development for Rotterdam and for Feyenoord.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:11 AM   #370
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That really is a massively ambitious stadium I had no idea Feeyenoord was such a massive club, even if the minimal requirements are met the finances produced could make them one of Europe’s elite in terms of finance. How solid is this project because from the sounds of things Feeyenoord aren't rolling in money at the minute even in 7/8 years time wouldn't funding a stadium project of this size even partially be a problem? How would Feeyenoord finance it? And also do you know when the club and or city will give more concrete information about the project?
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:30 AM   #371
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The classic 3 big clubs (that virtually win everything) in the Netherlands are Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. Especially the first 2 clubs have a huge number of supporters.

Dutch football is relatively poor at the moment, and Feyenoord even more. Clubs can't get the amount of money by TV rights as clubs in Spain, England and Italy. Tickets are very important. It will be a big investment, but with the economicly very successful Amsterdam ArenA (already more than the full investment is paid back), there is no reason why Feyenoord couldn't do the same trick.

In the eyes of politicians making chance for a WC and Champions League finals is also important.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:46 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by berkshire royal View Post

That really is a massively ambitious stadium I had no idea Feeyenoord was such a massive club, even if the minimal requirements are met the finances produced could make them one of Europe’s elite in terms of finance. How solid is this project because from the sounds of things Feeyenoord aren't rolling in money at the minute even in 7/8 years time wouldn't funding a stadium project of this size even partially be a problem? How would Feeyenoord finance it? And also do you know when the club and or city will give more concrete information about the project?
About the financing, I think I have explained that in my previous post. Feyenoord is still a huge club, probably still the most popular in the Netherlands, and potentially an even bigger one. Their last league title was in 1999. Since then the UEFA Cup was won in 2002, an exceptional succes.

If the Club becomes more successful again, they will need the new stadium even more badly than they do now. New successes generate new supporters, and we have not been very successful lately (only 4 league titles since 1974!). But already the stadium is basically sold out every game, (average attendance last year 45.000+ at a maximum capacity of 47.000 seats the club is allowed to sell. For some games due to safety regulations, the maximum capacity is lowered to 42.000) and yes, we for sure do not have a team which is the favorite to win the next title.

But the fans are very loyal, but also are growing to be impatient due to the lack of new successes.

About the solidness of this project: the City will make public the exact location of the stadium in the new development this Autumn. It will be on the land where the amatures of Sportclub Feyenoord play now, but where exactly is not clear yet. This site is opposite to the site where the present stadium stands.

The Mayor of Rotterdam, Ivo Opstelten, has set two major goals for himself to achieve before he leaves office on January 1st, 2009. The one goal is a competition, he wants Rotterdam to Host the start of the Tour de France in 2010-2011 or so. The outcome of course is still unclear and not controlable by the City.
The other goal, which is controlable by the city, is to have an irreversible decision to move forward with the stadium project. So at the end of the year a formal go to start the developments is expected. Also the Dutch FA supports these developments, as are several other involved parties.

The new stadium will commercially put Feyenoord easily at the top of the Dutch League, but other clubs are already expanding. And at present, all direct competitors get quite a lot more revenues per seat out of their stadiums than Feyenoord currently can. PSV is thinking about an expansion to 43.000, they are currently expanding their already impressive business facilities. Ajax and Amsterdam want to increase the capaciy of the ArenA to 70.000 seats, the maximum which is possible on the site without demolishing surrounding buildings. FC Twente is expanding, Heerenveen is expanding, Groningen is expanding, AZ Alkmaar will probably expand their new stadium soon! All their stadiums will have about 40.000 seats, probably just bit more than that to be exactly. They do need to meet the minimum WC-2018 demands!

But the European top teams are way out of reach. The budgets of Chelsea, Manchester United, Barcelona or Real Madrid are impossible to match for clubs from a relatively small league. Especially the TV revenues and the major sponsor contracts are incomparable!

For example:PSV is the richest club in the Netherlands due to some very successful Champions League campaignes over the last 10 years. That is quite an achievement. Their annual budget is at best 80 million Euro's. Feyenoords' budget for the upcoming season will be 43 million Euro's, but that includes payments to downsize the debt of the club. The debt now stands at 10 million Euro's, it was more than 30 million 3 years ago. So the current management is doing a good job when you take the limited financial resources into account.

Compare these figures to the former mentioned clubs and it becomes clear that no matter how hard we try, we can never reach that scale. Unless a real European competition would be erected by the UEFA or by the Clubs themselves!

But I am very happy that we are on the road to recovery, and I am very, very happy to see this fantastic new stadium being developed for the most beautiful (personal opinion ) and most beloved "peoples club" in the Netherlands.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 11:51 AM   #373
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Dont forget that it doesnt only mean a new stadium but a lot more.

- New Bridge or Tunnel
- Metro connection
- Multiple training fields
- A sportcenter for indoor stuff (wich will be expanded).
- [Rumour] New Trainstation (Rotterdam Zuid and Rotterdam Stadion will be combined to one station with "Intercity status". I wont be suprised if the HSL would stop there too when its needed.)

Its a lot bigger then just a new Stadium :P (Plus that the old one will still be in use for other stuff )
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Old July 30th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #374
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I left those points out of my post, but you are correct, it underlines the scale of the developments in that area.

There will almost certainly a new large city bridge for normal traffic including a new tram-plus line connecting the stadium area with the Public Transport transferium Kralingse Zoom, thus connecting the city districts Feijenoord and Kralingen. Also a second direct connection to Highway A16 and a connection with the main inner-city east-West Axis is realised by this bridge. A enormous boost which will also kick-start the Parkstad urban redevelopments on the Kop van Zuid, the place where the bridge will start seen from the southern side of the city. You "forgot" that part in your list

The metro connection is also likely, but is a bit further down the road. Especially when you take into account the time to construct a new metro line. Also the designated route has not been determined yet. So we will have to wait a bit longer to see that being realised.

The indoor Topsportcenter which is situated neighbouring the current stadium will be expanded with another hall and many other facilities, the project costs 45 million Euro's. The final decision has already been taken by the city council.

The new training grounds for Feyenoord are supposed to be huge as well. 14 fields and a large hall to train indoors are planned. This new training complex could be moved away from the new stadium because there might be not enough room for such a large complex in that area! No decision has been taken yet, but it is expected to be decided in 2009.

I have heard the trainstation rumour as well, but remember that the trainstation Lombardijen is only 1 km away from the planned area where the new stadium will be built. So this trainstation is also only 1,4 km away from the present stadium. And right now the stadium already has its own trainstation, although it is only in operation when big events are organized in he stadium (every game, every big concert, etc.).

So it is very hard to squeeze in a new IC Trainstation in that area. I think they will move the dedicated train station (which definately needs a refurbishment) to face the fron of the new stadium. Depending on the route the new metro line is going to take, the IC trainstation will be at the stadium or at the Parkstad development area where it was originally planned several years ago.

In your list you also left out the new road entrance from the A16 (Van Brienenoordbridge) to the stadium area. That road and all the surrounding industrial builings going towards the river will be redevloped completely. It will look unrecognisable for anyone who will leave the area at the start of the developments (2010 or so) and who will return 10 years later!
The new training grounds have been a part of some landscape studies done by several architectural firms. These studies are still studies only, but a final concept of how this area will look in 10 years time is in the process. It could and should be ready in 2009-2010 in order to get the redevelopments started in time.

We really have something to look forward to! Hopefully it will boost the WC-2018 decision also in favor of the Belgium-Netherlands bid. All these developments certainly will not hurt the chances of this bid. If it wil be enough, that we have to wait and see!
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Old July 30th, 2008, 01:24 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Wuppeltje View Post
The classic 3 big clubs (that virtually win everything) in the Netherlands are Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. Especially the first 2 clubs have a huge number of supporters.

Dutch football is relatively poor at the moment, and Feyenoord even more. Clubs can't get the amount of money by TV rights as clubs in Spain, England and Italy. Tickets are very important. It will be a big investment, but with the economicly very successful Amsterdam ArenA (already more than the full investment is paid back), there is no reason why Feyenoord couldn't do the same trick.

In the eyes of politicians making chance for a WC and Champions League finals is also important.
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About the financing, I think I have explained that in my previous post. Feyenoord is still a huge club, probably still the most popular in the Netherlands, and potentially an even bigger one. Their last league title was in 1999. Since then the UEFA Cup was won in 2002, an exceptional succes.

If the Club becomes more successful again, they will need the new stadium even more badly than they do now. New successes generate new supporters, and we have not been very successful lately (only 4 league titles since 1974!). But already the stadium is basically sold out every game, (average attendance last year 45.000+ at a maximum capacity of 47.000 seats the club is allowed to sell. For some games due to safety regulations, the maximum capacity is lowered to 42.000) and yes, we for sure do not have a team which is the favorite to win the next title.

But the fans are very loyal, but also are growing to be impatient due to the lack of new successes.

About the solidness of this project: the City will make public the exact location of the stadium in the new development this Autumn. It will be on the land where the amatures of Sportclub Feyenoord play now, but where exactly is not clear yet. This site is opposite to the site where the present stadium stands.

The Mayor of Rotterdam, Ivo Opstelten, has set two major goals for himself to achieve before he leaves office on January 1st, 2009. The one goal is a competition, he wants Rotterdam to Host the start of the Tour de France in 2010-2011 or so. The outcome of course is still unclear and not controlable by the City.
The other goal, which is controlable by the city, is to have an irreversible decision to move forward with the stadium project. So at the end of the year a formal go to start the developments is expected. Also the Dutch FA supports these developments, as are several other involved parties.

The new stadium will commercially put Feyenoord easily at the top of the Dutch League, but other clubs are already expanding. And at present, all direct competitors get quite a lot more revenues per seat out of their stadiums than Feyenoord currently can. PSV is thinking about an expansion to 43.000, they are currently expanding their already impressive business facilities. Ajax and Amsterdam want to increase the capaciy of the ArenA to 70.000 seats, the maximum which is possible on the site without demolishing surrounding buildings. FC Twente is expanding, Heerenveen is expanding, Groningen is expanding, AZ Alkmaar will probably expand their new stadium soon! All their stadiums will have about 40.000 seats, probably just bit more than that to be exactly. They do need to meet the minimum WC-2018 demands!

But the European top teams are way out of reach. The budgets of Chelsea, Manchester United, Barcelona or Real Madrid are impossible to match for clubs from a relatively small league. Especially the TV revenues and the major sponsor contracts are incomparable!

For example:PSV is the richest club in the Netherlands due to some very successful Champions League campaignes over the last 10 years. That is quite an achievement. Their annual budget is at best 80 million Euro's. Feyenoords' budget for the upcoming season will be 43 million Euro's, but that includes payments to downsize the debt of the club. The debt now stands at 10 million Euro's, it was more than 30 million 3 years ago. So the current management is doing a good job when you take the limited financial resources into account.

Compare these figures to the former mentioned clubs and it becomes clear that no matter how hard we try, we can never reach that scale. Unless a real European competition would be erected by the UEFA or by the Clubs themselves!

But I am very happy that we are on the road to recovery, and I am very, very happy to see this fantastic new stadium being developed for the most beautiful (personal opinion ) and most beloved "peoples club" in the Netherlands.
Thanks for providing that information it certainly will be a huge project which has the potential to put Feyenoord back to the top of Dutch football. With all these stadium expansions I reckon that as long as the stadiums are full once completed it well push up all other revenue streams and make the Dutch league more competitive within Europe. After explaining this so brilliantly can you tell me anymore about what is going on at PSV and Ajax regarding stadium expansion as both seem to have their problems regarding this from what I have read.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 01:44 PM   #376
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I do not think they have problems with that. PSV can relatively easy expand to the planned +/- 43.000 seats. They have the money and the support of the City if they will go ahead with their plans. PSV fully owns its own stadium, so that makes planning projects a bit easier.

Ajax and the Amsterdam ArenA first wanted to increase the stadium to about 60.000+. They studied that proposal and it was feasable to do it. Then new UEFA regulations came regarding hosting a CL final. These regulations state that the venues which want to organize such an event should at least have 70.000 seats. And Amsterdam wants to organize that CL final in the future again.
Again they studied this, and again the conclusion was that it is feasable to do this. Though this expansion, to just over 70.000 seats will be much more expensive since the roof needs much more "lifting" before the construction can start. And the roof needs to be extended to the top of the then built third tier.

But it is doable, and the chairman of the Amsterdam ArenA said that if they wanted to do it quickly, work could start in 2010 or so. Obviously they will also upgrade the rest of the stadiums facilities since the new demands for those facilities have changed so much since the stadium was opened in 1996! And look at all the VIP tents around the Euro-2008 stadiums! I visited Basel for the Netherlands-Russia game, the temporary facilities were very impressive.

But no final decision on both the PSV Eindhoven and Ajax Amsterdam stadium has been taken yet, but I suspect both PSV and Ajax/City of Amsterdam to make the necessary positive decisions in 1 to 3 years time.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #377
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Ajax could definitely do with a larger stadium and its good to hear that the whole stadium will get a bit of updating maybe some of the flaws that currently exist can be eradicated. Do you reckon they will dig down even a little to make the stands closer to the pitch because that is definitely needed at the moment? Also do you know if there is any early images of any of the three clubs proposed expansion/new stadium or are all 3 proposals at a too early stage? Thanks in advance for any information you can provide
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #378
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Digging deeper is not an option since there is a highway passing underneath!

There was an early design for a new Kuip but since the plans have changed they will choose a new one I guess. I'll try to find it.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:13 PM   #379
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In the Amsterdam ArenA it is possible to add additional seating towards the pitch. That would close the "ditch" between te field and the first tier. No digging is necessary. Lowering the pitch is impossible due to the parking garage and the road underneath the stadium.

I am sure there are images of the studies for the expansion of the PSV Eindhoven stadium (Philips Stadium) and for he expansion of the Amsterdam ArenA. But I do not have any images of the proposals studied. I do not think they have been released to the public yet.

It is way too early for images of the new Feyenoord Stadium. Think creatively what a cross-over between Emirates, Allianz and Reliant could look like. That will give yoa an idea. But your creative thoughts are as good or as worse as mine on this. We will have to wait for the competition between several architects. I am pretty sure that such a high-profile stadium will attract some interesting competitors . High profile buildings usually do.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:17 PM   #380
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There was an early design for a new Kuip but since the plans have changed they will choose a new one I guess. I'll try to find it.
The early designs were initiatives from some architects. In no way were they official or related to the developments initiated by th Club Feyenoord and the City of Rotterdam. Like I said, we have to wait for the program which describes the requirements for the new stadium.
After that the architects can and will do their work!
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