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Old November 17th, 2007, 03:38 PM   #41
skaP187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintana View Post
The Dutch should go for it alone or don't even try.
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Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
That's rubbish. What would be the advantage of a bid without the Belgians? I dont think we have 10 cities that can sustain a 40k + stadium. Besides, Belgium and the Netherlands already have the experience of euro 2000, and most of us speak the same language.
By 2018 there won´t be any Belgium no more, just Walonie, Vlaanderen and Brussels.
The Netherlands could do a joint bid with Vlaanderen, if that would not become a part of the Netherlands (which would make sence) and Brussels.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 03:40 PM   #42
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for me confort is more important than world architecture. If you have an other opinion, that's your problem.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by skaP187 View Post
By 2018 there won´t be any Belgium no more, just Walonie, Vlaanderen and Brussels.
The Netherlands could do a joint bid with Vlaanderen, if that would not become a part of the Netherlands (which would make sence) and Brussels.
You might want to use the English names for Vlaanderen and Walonie (Flanders and Wallonia) if you want non-Dutch readers to understand your post .

I think you should offer your crystal ball to the King of Belgium, I'm sure he'd like to see what has become of Belgium by 2018 with such certainty as you do! When does you crystal ball say that Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels will become independent nations?

Fact is that Belgium is still a country, despite the political turmoil. The deadline for submitting bids for the 2018 WC is in 2009, so I guess a joint bid with Flanders would make no sense, unless Flanders becomes independent in the next year or so.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 03:58 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Joop20 View Post
You might want to use the English names for Vlaanderen and Walonie (Flanders and Wallonia) if you want non-Dutch readers to understand your post .

I think you should offer your crystal ball to the King of Belgium, I'm sure he'd like to see what has become of Belgium by 2018 with such certainty as you do! When does you crystal ball say that Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels will become independent nations?

Fact is that Belgium is still a country, despite the political turmoil. The deadline for submitting bids for the 2018 WC is in 2009, so I guess a joint bid with Flanders would make no sense, unless Flanders becomes independent in the next year or so.
Thanks for the Enlish versions of these names. I´ll remember your post so I can copy and paste it.
And offcourse you are right, but then again you know my post is not based on nothing.

What does the Lux do in the bid by the way?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 04:20 PM   #45
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Do you have some personal grudge against Belgium or Belgians, or are you so negative about them ?

And are you one of those Dutch who thinks that Belgians are not so clever, or why do you think they lack the intelligence to build world class stadiums?
I don't have anything against Belgians. I just don't see the necessity for a joint bid. I don't think they are not so clever either (although IQ test show they are clearly below us Cloggies ), just that they construct lousy stadiums. Why? I don't know. Maybe they have crappy architects or they just don't have or are willing to invest enough money
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Old November 17th, 2007, 04:21 PM   #46
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Thanks for the Enlish versions of these names. I´ll remember your post so I can copy and paste it.
And offcourse you are right, but then again you know my post is not based on nothing.

What does the Lux do in the bid by the way?
Luxembourg will be used for the bank accounts.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 04:41 PM   #47
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belgians and Dutch are equal to each other. And we need each other if we want to organise the world championship football in 2018.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 05:02 PM   #48
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belgians and Dutch are equal to each other. And we need each other if we want to organise the world championship football in 2018.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 05:08 PM   #49
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Benelux bid??? And were is the host city of Luxemburg?
I think the title mus be changed to Belgium/Netherlands 2018 WC bid!
But would be also great to have only Netherlands as host country.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 05:52 PM   #50
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Benelux bid??? And were is the host city of Luxemburg?
I think the title mus be changed to Belgium/Netherlands 2018 WC bid!
But would be also great to have only Netherlands as host country.
I think Luxemburg wil organise the drawing.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:03 PM   #51
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I also think that Holland should make a solo bid. Not because I don't like Belgians (in contrary, I do) but because 1: We can. 2: Looking at the Belgian euro 2000 stadiums I'm a bit fearful for the quality of stadiums that they'll deliver this time. Because they can't fill them, thus don't really need them, I fear that the building budgets will be low...

And to those who think we shouldn't get the WC because we can't fill the stadiums: Let's just say we won't get the world cup shall we? What would be left of all those new stadium plans?

Belgium:

Antwerp, won't be built (or at least a significantly smaller one) Who needs it?? Their biggest team (not 40000 big) plays in the second league, and their second team can't even fill their 13000 (to Belgian standards relatively modern) stadium
Bruges, will be built. Will be pretty much full .
Brussels, will be built. Anderlecht is big but 60000 big? Perhaps.
Liege, probably a renovation on their current stadium? Or a cheap-ass new one? They can fill 40000, but not on a weekly basis i think.
Charleroi, dream on... They can't even fill that sad excuse for a stadium halfway as it is...
Gent, just the proposed 20000 seater. No need for anything else. they currently attract only 9000 people on average...
Genk, nobody talked about expansion until the bid. They don't really need it but they could perhaps fill it.

A suggestion for any other city would be hilarious. So Belgium could never pull this of by themselves.

Netherlands:

Amsterdam, there already. expansion without WC will depend on cost.
Rotterdam, New 60000 ~ 80000 stadium will be there regardless of WC
Eindhoven, Still no plans or even rumours. But they fill their 36000 stadium for every match so either an expansion or new 50+k stadium within 10 years is very probable and needed if they want to build on their recent European success.
Alkmaar, The expansion to 40000 will be done. The architect sketches are finished (they look very nice and original). No definitive date has been set tough. Will it be full? Doubt it. We'll have to wait and see. The club's owner is a small, dutch Roman Abrhamovitsj though and he wants it...
Enschede, The expansion on the stadium from 13000 to 25000 has already started and will be finished at the start of next season (a second tier on half of the stadium). All those new seats have already been sold based on the waiting list for season tickets. A further expansion would take them to 43000 (according to club officials) Studies have shown that the club and it's region could sustain a stadium of that size. So it's their intension to go to 43000. Not because of a WC, but because they want to turn the Dutch top 4 into a top 5.
Heerenveen, They never stop expanding. They went from a 8000 "stadium" to a proper new 13000 one during the mid nineties then they increased to 18000, 21000, 26600 and currently expanding to just under 30000. They have pretty much reached the end of possibilities. A new 40~45K stadium will eventually come. A World Cup would definitely speed up that process.
Groningen, currently 19500 (sold out for every match) will be expanded to 22500 (lowering the pitch) during the next summer.They want to expand with another tier to somewhere between 35 and 40K. They have put in a request with the architect. It will happen. The WC could be speeding up that process.


So for Holland that makes 7 sustainable WC capacity stadiums for Belgium more or less 3. To my calculations that makes 10.... 10 stadiums that will be build regardless of a WC. Unfortunatly, it will be 5 + 5. So there will be at least 2 white elephants in Belgium, and 2 fine dutch stadiums unused. For a solo Dutch bid, you've got several outsiders to fill the gap of 2 to 3:

Utrecht, They attract an average of 21000 in their recently completely renovated and expanded 25000 stadium. I don't think they would need a 40000 stadium. But the company that's sponsoring them has said they want to buy the club and build a new 40000 seater along the A2. Time will tell...
Rotterdam, "De Kuip" won't be demolished because it's an official monument. I see 2 problems though... 1. It will literally be right next door to the new stadium (about 50 meters) 2. Feyenoord is leaving it for a reason... Will it be structurally safe to use. Will it get through the safety tests?
The Hague, A bit like Antwerp, huge potential on paper but thats it... A 40000 seater in the Hague sound like a white elephant to me... But the local government might not want to miss out on being a host city...
Kerkrade, This could be the saving angel. Roda can't fill their 20000 stadium as it is, but I've read on several places that the local government have answered positively on the Dutch FA's request to be a host city. The plan would be to build a temporary second tier to make the capacity 40000. Apparently this was taken into consideration for these kind of circumstances when the stadium was build. It would be a relatively easy process and wouldn't be to costly. Besides that, a solo Dutch bid would desperately need a stadium in the province of Limburg to keep the event spread over the whole country
Amsterdam/Almere, Last week, the Dutch government has officially announced an investigation into a bid for the Olympic games in 2028. A new national 80K athletics stadium could be build by 2018. It would be the only stadium with a running track. But with a "stade de france" kind of movable 1st tier that wouldn't be much of a problem.
Arnhem, They have a 30000 seater stadium and don't need anything bigger. And, with the roof and all, I think an expansion would be way too costly for only 3 or 4 WC matches.
Nijmegen, Wont happen. They just presented their (nice!)plans for the expansion of their stadium from 12500 to 20000. They'll have a hard time to fill just that...
Breda, NAC doesn't need it, but I heard suggestions that the local government wants it. They seem to be desperate to place themselves on the world map. They already paid a ridiculous amount of money to be attached to the high speed rail network.

So yes, It can be done. Add to that:

1. We are a world renowned footballing nation. Were still regarded as "the best nation never to have won the world cup". Our players and coaches are known all over the world. Belgium's most famous footballer wouldhave a hard time maken the top 20 if you would combine Holland and Belgium... Let's not start about the Belgian national team. If they will keep going downhill like they are now, by 2018 it would be a toss-up who gets the second host spot. Belgium or Luxembourg. In a solo bid, this could be played in our advantage: Don't we as a footballing nation deserve it then to host it?
2. Orange! Everybody loves our (national team) supporters. They behave well and bring liveliness everywhere they go. Wouldn't it be nice to host it in their country for once? Fun guaranteed.

These are two very important factors for informal lobbying that could be an important way to persuade people to vote for us. With the Belgians the power of those arguments declines...

Unfortunately, a solo bid wont happen. Maybe it would be best for us to lose out to England and try our own luck in 202x or 203x.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:14 PM   #52
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Good post, I saw an interview with an executive on PSV.tv. PSV are looking into the possibilities to expand the capacity of the Philips Stadion to 42,000 regardless of the World Cup. He didn't rule out the possibility of a new stadium entirely either although he has a preference to stay at the Philips Stadion.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:14 PM   #53
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2. Orange! Everybody loves our (national team) supporters.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:24 PM   #54
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Ok, Shall we ask all the non (frustrated) belgian people? Cause unfortunately it seems that you can't put your hatred towards dutch people aside. At Olympic games, WC, and EC's we are applauded for our behavior in the stadiums and the cities (never any incidents) + the thick orange mass that we form in a stadium. This argument could count for a several other countries, but Belgium sure as hell aint one of them...
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #55
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They have a lot of Flemish nationalists waving flags at cycling races though
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:35 PM   #56
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Come on, let's continue the way we have always been behaving towards and looking each other: not with hatred (don't be silly) but with the jokes and prejudices, which we don't take too serious, and which are no constraint for good neighbourship.

And seriously, I can't figure out where you get the idea that we envy of hate Dutch people, mavn.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:38 PM   #57
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They have a lot of Flemish nationalists waving flags at cycling races though
Pretty ridicilous in my opinion, but hey, if they just stick to that, no problem. And as long as they don't accidentily stick it in a fellowman's wheels in all their enthousiasm (remember Paris-Roubaix).

But they definitely show a lot more enthousiasm when it comes to expressing their nationalist feelings than the supporters of the Belgian squad, that's for sure.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #58
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Why this discussion? There will be a Belgian/Dutch bid, nothing more, nothing less.

PS: I don't see Belgium falling apart. They will stay one country.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 06:52 PM   #59
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Come on, let's continue the way we have always been behaving towards and looking each other: not with hatred (don't be silly) but with the jokes and prejudices, which we don't take too serious, and which are no constraint for good neighbourship.

And seriously, I can't figure out where you get the idea that we envy of hate Dutch people, mavn.
By no means did I try to say that all belgians hate the dutch. But he's obviously frustrated with us or something. On contrary to what you're impliyng, I think Belgians are generally a lot friendlier than the dutch.

There is always a bit of healthy rivalry between our two nations. We are a bit bigger and (no offense) considerably better in sports which fuels that feeling especially in Belgium. A bit like we have with the Germans. Bigger and better. Thats why we like beating Germany so much and you like beating us.

Like I said, I would've liked us to have bid for the WC on our own. But now that we've teamed-up I am supporting it all the way.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:02 PM   #60
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Ok, Shall we ask all the non (frustrated) belgian people? Cause unfortunately it seems that you can't put your hatred towards dutch people aside.
jezus christ, it's a joke, man! Furthermore I don't know anyone in Belgium who is jealous of the Netherlands in any way. If anyone is acting hatefull, it's you. This thread is about the Belgium/Netherlands bid, but you keep bringing down the Belgian stadiums, teams and future projects...
It's a joint bid, so don't come whining about Holland organizing it on their own. Euro2000 was a big success, I don't see any reason a WC couldn't be one as well...
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