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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #61
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Like I said, I would've liked us to have bid for the WC on our own. But now that we've teamed-up I am supporting it all the way.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #62
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By no means did I try to say that all belgians hate the dutch. But he's obviously frustrated with us or something. On contrary to what you're impliyng, I think Belgians are generally a lot friendlier than the dutch.

There is always a bit of healthy rivalry between our two nations. We are a bit bigger and (no offense) considerably better in sports which fuels that feeling especially in Belgium. A bit like we have with the Germans. Bigger and better. Thats why we like beating Germany so much and you like beating us.

Like I said, I would've liked us to have bid for the WC on our own. But now that we've teamed-up I am supporting it all the way.
I can't deny that Holland is generally better in sports, but I think that is mainly a matter of mentality, and not of means or pure talent. The Dutch always had a bigger mouth than us, to put it simple, and a bigger urge to show off (although a bit moderated by protestantism). Belgians tend to be more modest and humble, and maybe more realistic (a bit to an unnecessary degree). Plus we always have to find compromises between this and that party when we want to realise something, and to many parties are involved, where as in Holland it seems more easy "to get all noses pointing in the same direction".
The same goes for architecture. It would be great if we could perform as well or better than you guys, but simply to do better, much better than we are doing now, to set an example of what a small country can be capable of. And not (at least not from my personal point of view) "to beat the Dutch". Infact I respect a lot of Dutch sportsmen, as long as they don't get (too) arrogant. And even the humpa-humpa orange madness is quite funny if you look at it from a distance and don't let yourself be irritated by it.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:11 PM   #63
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I think you're underestimating the popularity of football in the Netherlands and Belgium there. The average attendence in the Dutch eredivisie is 18,000 (almost the same as the average attendence in the Italian Serie A), compared to an average of just 13,000 10 years ago.

I'm pretty sure teams like AZ, Twente, FC Utrecht, Heerenveen and FC Groningen can draw a larger crowd as they currently do. PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord could also draw more people in a larger stadium I think.

Oh yeah, I see that you're from Poland. Do you think Polish teams can fill those new stadiums that'll be built for Euro 2012??
I'm sorry if you felt like I was underestimating the potential on purpose. I just don't see the overall tendency here so I might have been wrong, no intention though. You know it better.

Still- 5 000 increase over a decade is not too much really. To compare and try to answer your question about Poland- we've had 3 000 increase within 1,5 year and surely with new investments it will get better. Noticeable especially when you add that it was 5,5k and is 8,5k per game . That of course may mean everything and nothing... I think with a bit of luck and a lot of hard work we would be able to make use of the stadiums after E2012. But I have to say we also might not be able to cope with the new reality...

By the way- if Groningen already wants to expand their stadium wouldn't that mean they haven't really examined the possibilities in the first place? After all Euroborg was just opened... Same for AZ and Utrecht...
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:15 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
I can't deny that Holland is generally better in sports, but I think that is mainly a matter of mentality, and not of means or pure talent. The Dutch always had a bigger mouth than us, to put it simple, and a bigger urge to show off (although a bit moderated by protestantism). Belgians tend to be more modest and humble, and maybe more realistic (a bit to an unnecessary degree). Plus we always have to find compromises between this and that party when we want to realise something, and to many parties are involved, where as in Holland it seems more easy "to get all noses pointing in the same direction".
The same goes for architecture. It would be great if we could perform as well or better than you guys, but simply to do better, much better than we are doing now, to set an example of what a small country can be capable of. And not (at least not from my personal point of view) "to beat the Dutch". Infact I respect a lot of Dutch sportsmen, as long as they don't get (too) arrogant. And even the humpa-humpa orange madness is quite funny if you look at it from a distance and don't let yourself be irritated by it.
I wouldn't want to be seen alive in that orange mass of either. But I like what it does to the look of a filled stadium and our image worldwide.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #65
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By the way- if Groningen already wants to expand their stadium wouldn't that mean they haven't really examined the possibilities in the first place? After all Euroborg was just opened... Same for AZ and Utrecht...
Yep. And for Heerenveen, Twente, etc.

When it comes to building stadiums we have a tendency to go for the absolute lowest expected average. A positive note however, is that pretty much all our stadiums are completely full. 20000 in a 20000 stadium looks a lot nicer than 26000 in a 40000 stadium.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:27 PM   #66
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It's almost a 100% certain that Belgium will get in the next few years lots of new stadiums (finally!). With or without the 2018 WC.


- Brussels (new national stadium)
- Antwerp
- Ghent
- Brugge (pic: http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stadionux9.jpg)
- Genk
- Charleroi
- Liège
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
It's almost a 100% certain that Belgium will get in the next few years lots of new stadiums (finally!). With or without the 2018 WC.


- Brussels (new national stadium)
- Antwerp
- Ghent
- Brugge (pic: http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stadionux9.jpg)
- Genk
- Charleroi
- Liège
A new stadium in Charleroi even without WC2018? Did I miss out on something Thermo?

May I add that the stadium in Genk will not be new, but expanded. And you forgot the smaller new, expanded or renovated stadiums in Waregem, Sint-Truiden, Mons and maybe Mechelen and Lier. But they won't be in World Cup category.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:42 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermo View Post
- Brussels (new national stadium)
- Antwerp
- Ghent
- Brugge (pic: http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stadionux9.jpg)
- Genk
- Charleroi
- Liège
About Brussels- what will happen to Koenig Boudewijn Stadium? And what about the expansion of Constan Vanden Stock? Presented here: http://www.stadiumguide.com/anderlecht.htm

Plus- the design for Brugge was presented quite some time ago and it still seems initial- has anything gone forward?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavn View Post
So for Holland that makes 7 sustainable WC capacity stadiums for Belgium more or less 3. To my calculations that makes 10.... 10 stadiums that will be build regardless of a WC. Unfortunatly, it will be 5 + 5.
Do you have info that we don't? I havent heard anything yet about the distribution of stadiums between Belgium and the Netherlands, imo its more likely that the distribution will be 4/6 that 5/5.

And we can go on for ages whether the Netherlands should bid alone or not, but it's not gonna happen... So lets have a positive discussion here about the Benelux bid .
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:59 PM   #70
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Brussels is going to buil a stadium (60000) of 250 000 000 euro's in a complex of 1 000 000 000 euro's. Estadio da luz (lissabon; 64000) costs 118 mio euro. That's more than half the cost + 4000 seats more. I think this will be a 'quality stadium'.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 08:17 PM   #71
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stadium genk that can be expanded:

http://www.tvl.be/nl/nieuws/2007-11-...nk-op-wk-2018/

Is this so bad?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 08:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by michał_ View Post
Plus- the design for Brugge was presented quite some time ago and it still seems initial- has anything gone forward?
Club Bruges wouldn't want anything more than to move on, and they have the plans and the money, but there is a lot of opposition, from politicians in Bruges and Loppem (new stadium location), from nimby's...

The mayor of Bruges wants to keep FC Bruges in the city in Bruges, in the existing stadium, and wants to refurbish and expand it. Problem is: where do they get the money; and secondly: +15000 seats means even more traffic in this densily populated neighbourhood, where there are no big roads and parking lots, no tram lines or metro or light rail, no train station... Plus: Bruges finally wants its own stadium, instead of sharing a city owned stadium with Cercle, but paying more than 90% of the rent...
And it would take a lot of work and money to transform Jan Breydelstadium in something modern and comfortable...
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Last edited by Chimaera; November 17th, 2007 at 09:15 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 08:56 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by mavn View Post
By no means did I try to say that all belgians hate the dutch. But he's obviously frustrated with us or something. On contrary to what you're impliyng, I think Belgians are generally a lot friendlier than the dutch.

There is always a bit of healthy rivalry between our two nations. We are a bit bigger and (no offense) considerably better in sports which fuels that feeling especially in Belgium. A bit like we have with the Germans. Bigger and better. Thats why we like beating Germany so much and you like beating us.

Like I said, I would've liked us to have bid for the WC on our own. But now that we've teamed-up I am supporting it all the way.
In 'small' sports but in the end the sports that internationally count are these:

Football
Cycling
Tennis
Athletics

In football you are better, but Tennis: Henin, Cycling: Boonen, Athletics : Gevaert,Hellebaut.

And they are a lot of other sports we are better in or even world leaders but that counts for The Netherlands too.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 08:59 PM   #74
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I don't see why people think the Belgian stadiums will be white elephants.

National stadium: full, in tournament and if they play good i think too.
Bruges: full
Standard: full
Genk: full
Anderlecht: maybe, 60000 is a bit too much i think but they haven't said yes already to cooperate with the national stadium, so maybe they build a 50000 on their own.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 09:44 PM   #75
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The stadiums you´re naming are allright I gues. Don´t see why they would be white elephants either.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #76
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In 'small' sports but in the end the sports that internationally count are these:

Cycling matters more than Basketball, Baseball, Cricket, Ice Hockey, Rugby Union and Handball?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:10 PM   #77
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Cycling matters more than Basketball, Baseball, Cricket, Ice Hockey, Rugby Union and Handball?
yes ... of course it does, maybe not in America but the sports you name doesn't matter B or N aren't good at that.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:28 PM   #78
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Sorry but internationally all of those sports could rival cycling. I understand the cycling is big in the Lowlands, but elsewhere it isn't - of course a lot of people cycle, but few of them do so competitively - whereas Basketball for instance is huge, as is cricket, these are major world sports.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:32 PM   #79
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Baseball and Rugby is mostly in the angelsaxon countries,cricket is a very unknown sport in Europe i think and basketball or handball are popular sports but not in the way like cycling does ...

Cycling is likely everywhere besides SE Asia.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #80
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Cricket is big around the world, of course I realise you are a Wallonian and you believe that non-white people are inferior witness the disgusting treatment of the Congo under Leopold and Tintin - but there are cities in India bigger than the entire population of Belguim, son. People cycle everywhere, just the same as people walk everywhere, doesn't mean they do so competitively fool. Baseball big in Anglo-Saxon countries, like Venezuela and Japan and the Philippines? And even if that was true, look at the population of the English Speaking World its around 400 million, not small within itself. Rugby is certainly one of the fastest growing sports and France and Italy (where it is experiencing substantial growth) can hardly be termed Anglo-Saxon, nor Argentina. Basketball is huge, played in every continent and the national sport of several European Countries. Ice Hockey is the same. Sorry but competitive cycling is biggest in Belguim, it does not rival those other sports, Wallonian.
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