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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:43 PM   #81
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Why do you think I'm wallonian, and why would it care ?

Aren't here mods ?
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:56 PM   #82
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We Dutchies lost the semi-final of the Baseball World Cup against the Yanks today. That sport does matter here, although it hasn't got a huge following. We couldn't give a shit about athletics though. Cycling is mostly just the Tour de France. It is not like anyone here remembers who won this years Paris-Roubaix or de Ronde van Vlaanderen.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 10:59 PM   #83
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That's why it meant 'internationally', I didn't know that of the dutch baseball team!! Nice!
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Old November 17th, 2007, 11:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by europe! View Post
In 'small' sports but in the end the sports that internationally count are these:

Football
Cycling
Tennis
Athletics

In football you are better, but Tennis: Henin, Cycling: Boonen, Athletics : Gevaert,Hellebaut.

And they are a lot of other sports we are better in or even world leaders but that counts for The Netherlands too.
I by no means wanted to start a belguim vs holland thread. All I wanted to do is:

- Show that we can sustain 10 WC stadiums in the Benelux. With or without WC. Allot of people questioned that
- Show that Holland could even do it by themselves if they wanted.

that's it. A shame that you take it to this level...

But to answer your claims:

In football we are way better. agreed
In cycling you are definitely better. agreed
In Tennis you are better. But Henin and Clijsters came out of nothing, and when Henin would quit, as a tennis nation your nothing again. Just like we are right now. I wouldn't call Belgium a big tennis nation would you?
In Athletics we're comparable, but we've got more depth. Look up the results. We have won medals at world, European (indoor and outdoor) and Olympic games as well in the last 8 years... Smit, Blom, Ruckstuhl, Som, Sedoc, V/D Westen. They all won medals at one of these events. Check your facts before you claim something....

But most inportantly:

Medal Tables:

Sydney 2000
8th. Netherlands 12 9 4 - 25
56th. Belgium 0 2 3 - 5

Salt Lake City 2002
9th. Netherlands 3 5 0 - 8
--. Belgium

Athens 2004
17th Netherlands 4 9 9 - 22
51st Belgium 1 0 2 - 3

Turin 2006
10th Netherlands 3 2 4 - 9
--. Belgium

Shall we close this argument now? When somebody claims to be good at sports, the Olympic medal table is pretty much the only objective factor. I think the facts speak for themselves...

But please, lets start talking about a Benelux world cup in 2018 and all the great stadiums and other pieces of infrastructure that will be build to make the bid as strong as possible. If we want to organize it together, we'd better be friendly to each other...
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Old November 17th, 2007, 11:59 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavn View Post

But most inportantly:

Medal Tables:

Sydney 2000
8th. Netherlands 12 9 4 - 25
56th. Belgium 0 2 3 - 5

Salt Lake City 2002
9th. Netherlands 3 5 0 - 8
--. Belgium

Athens 2004
17th Netherlands 4 9 9 - 22
51st Belgium 1 0 2 - 3

Turin 2006
10th Netherlands 3 2 4 - 9
--. Belgium



We don´t need Belgium, just some of their stadiums...
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:00 AM   #86
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Cricket is big around the world, of course I realise you are a Wallonian and you believe that non-white people are inferior witness the disgusting treatment of the Congo under Leopold and Tintin - but there are cities in India bigger than the entire population of Belguim, son. People cycle everywhere, just the same as people walk everywhere, doesn't mean they do so competitively fool. Baseball big in Anglo-Saxon countries, like Venezuela and Japan and the Philippines? And even if that was true, look at the population of the English Speaking World its around 400 million, not small within itself. Rugby is certainly one of the fastest growing sports and France and Italy (where it is experiencing substantial growth) can hardly be termed Anglo-Saxon, nor Argentina. Basketball is huge, played in every continent and the national sport of several European Countries. Ice Hockey is the same. Sorry but competitive cycling is biggest in Belguim, it does not rival those other sports, Wallonian.
Too bad you're banned from the DLM
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:08 AM   #87
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Brrr... I've read some arrogance and ignorance in the last couple of posts, pretty disgusting. Quit it and get back on topic, please.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:53 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavn View Post
I by no means wanted to start a belguim vs holland thread. All I wanted to do is:

- Show that we can sustain 10 WC stadiums in the Benelux. With or without WC. Allot of people questioned that
- Show that Holland could even do it by themselves if they wanted.

that's it. A shame that you take it to this level...

But to answer your claims:

In football we are way better. agreed
In cycling you are definitely better. agreed
In Tennis you are better. But Henin and Clijsters came out of nothing, and when Henin would quit, as a tennis nation your nothing again. Just like we are right now. I wouldn't call Belgium a big tennis nation would you?
In Athletics we're comparable, but we've got more depth. Look up the results. We have won medals at world, European (indoor and outdoor) and Olympic games as well in the last 8 years... Smit, Blom, Ruckstuhl, Som, Sedoc, V/D Westen. They all won medals at one of these events. Check your facts before you claim something....

But most inportantly:

Medal Tables:

Sydney 2000
8th. Netherlands 12 9 4 - 25
56th. Belgium 0 2 3 - 5

Salt Lake City 2002
9th. Netherlands 3 5 0 - 8
--. Belgium

Athens 2004
17th Netherlands 4 9 9 - 22
51st Belgium 1 0 2 - 3

Turin 2006
10th Netherlands 3 2 4 - 9
--. Belgium

Shall we close this argument now? When somebody claims to be good at sports, the Olympic medal table is pretty much the only objective factor. I think the facts speak for themselves...

But please, lets start talking about a Benelux world cup in 2018 and all the great stadiums and other pieces of infrastructure that will be build to make the bid as strong as possible. If we want to organize it together, we'd better be friendly to each other...
I apologise if it felt like arrogance towards you ...
My post was just to discuss something not to attack

But pls let me answer, I knew this figures before I said the sports thing and like I said before The Netherlands get the most medals in less popular sports; Thats still much better than no medals I just wanted to point out that in the (In my opinion) greatest sports Beglium has an advantage ... except football.

Now back on topic, is the stadium for Standard going to be new or renovated ?
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Old November 18th, 2007, 01:15 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by europe! View Post
Now back on topic, is the stadium for Standard going to be new or renovated ?
Unless they change their minds, it will be a new stadium on a new location (Ans?). It's difficult to expand further at Sclessin, although they had plans before to do so.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:06 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by europe! View Post
I apologise if it felt like arrogance towards you ...
My post was just to discuss something not to attack

But pls let me answer, I knew this figures before I said the sports thing and like I said before The Netherlands get the most medals in less popular sports; Thats still much better than no medals I just wanted to point out that in the (In my opinion) greatest sports Beglium has an advantage ... except football.

Now back on topic, is the stadium for Standard going to be new or renovated ?
http://www.google.nl/search?q=most+p...L_enNL241NL241

It's an endless discussion, but it's fair to say that on a worldwide scale those "little sports" aren't as little as you seem to think. Field hockey, volleyball, baseball, basketball, rugby and cricket for instance could be considered just as big if not bigger than the ones you mentioned.

In 4 of those we attend their respective WC on a regular basis (all except Basketball and rugby), and in 3 we're world class (in cricket were pretty much cannon fodder for the big teams. But hey, we're there every four years)
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:34 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavn View Post
http://www.google.nl/search?q=most+p...L_enNL241NL241

It's an endless discussion, but it's fair to say that on a worldwide scale those "little sports" aren't as little as you seem to think. Field hockey, volleyball, baseball, basketball, rugby and cricket for instance could be considered just as big if not bigger than the ones you mentioned.

In 4 of those we attend their respective WC on a regular basis (all except Basketball and rugby), and in 3 we're world class (in cricket were pretty much cannon fodder for the big teams. But hey, we're there every four years)
we've been doing pretty well in basketball and volleyball (both women as men) ourselves recently, and our young football players are quite promising too. When it comes to tennis: let me express it in Dutch: één zwaluw maakt de lente niet. It's great what Henin, Clijsters and to a smaller extent Rochus, Malisse and further back in time Appelmans, Norman, De Wulf and Monami have done, but it should inspire and motivate players, trainers and everyone involved to continue working hard to insure follow-up.
There are some other sports we are well at, though not always on a regular basis.

And medals aren't everything: you can be subtop in many sports and not get any medal at all, or excel in two or three sports and collect 10 of them.

But yes, of course we still have lots of work, and are well aware of it.

Okay, tomorrow we'll go back on topic (2.40am here)
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:22 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
we've been doing pretty well in basketball and volleyball (both women as men) ourselves recently, and our young football players are quite promising too. When it comes to tennis: let me express it in Dutch: één zwaluw maakt de lente niet. It's great what Henin, Clijsters and to a smaller extent Rochus, Malisse and further back in time Appelmans, Norman, De Wulf and Monami have done, but it should inspire and motivate players, trainers and everyone involved to continue working hard to insure follow-up.
There are some other sports we are well at, though not always on a regular basis.

And medals aren't everything: you can be subtop in many sports and not get any medal at all, or excel in two or three sports and collect 10 of them.

But yes, of course we still have lots of work, and are well aware of it.

Okay, tomorrow we'll go back on topic (2.40am here)
We had a very good generation in tennis during the nineties and the beginning of this decade. Krajicek, Haarhuis(/)Eltingh, Siemerink, Schultz, Schalken, Verkerk. Currently all our hopes are aimed at Krajiceks younger sister. And we have a few youngster who've won youth grand slam events. Time will tell if they can form a new good generation.

And about medal tables, I would disagree. Either a country is small so it can sustain a high level in only a few sports, or it's big and therefor can do it in many sports. I couldn't name a country that is good in a lot of sports but never wins anything.

Also the amount of participants at the Olympics are a good measurement of depth. Athens: NL 210 in 20 sports. B 38 in 11 sports. This is partly because we tend to have a lot of teams at the olympic games tough: Hockey (m/f), Volleyball (m) and Baseball in Athens. And that number will only be bigger in Beijing cause both our hockey teams, Baseball, Softball, waterpolo (f) and football team are already qualified. And our volleyball teams + a few others could still be added to that.

I agree that the figures from the winter olympics fall under your second category though. All medals are won with speed skating. And speed skating is way bigger in holland than it is anywhere around the world. A worldwide top 20 on (virtually) any distance would probably hold 10 dutch skaters. But because we are only allowed 3 or 4 places per distance on the Olympics, the official Olympic trails are almost as exiting as the Olympic event itself. It's probably the only national event for an individual sport in which the competition is at world class level.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:26 AM   #93
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One of the things I think this bid is lacking is the inclusion of an 80,000+ stadium, for the final mostly...or even a 70,000+ stadium. Probably the only weak point of the 2006 WC for me was the Final stadium in Berlin, only 70,000 capacity, but they had plenty of big stadiums to compensate for that.

But with a bid like this, when a lot of the stadiums are going to be in the minimum capacity range I really think such a WC at least needs to have a BIG stadium for the final...in the mould of Wembley, Nou Camp, Estádio do Maracană etc etc. My thoughts anyway, I maybe wrong.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:46 AM   #94
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One of the things I think this bid is lacking is the inclusion of an 80,000+ stadium, for the final mostly...or even a 70,000+ stadium. Probably the only weak point of the 2006 WC for me was the Final stadium in Berlin, only 70,000 capacity, but they had plenty of big stadiums to compensate for that.

But with a bid like this, when a lot of the stadiums are going to be in the minimum capacity range I really think such a WC at least needs to have a BIG stadium for the final...in the mould of Wembley, Nou Camp, Estádio do Maracană etc etc. My thoughts anyway, I maybe wrong.
I believe the official Fifa guidelines only require a minimum capacity 40000 and 2 minimum 60000 seaters for the semis and final. The new Rotterdam stadium will probably be 70000 at least. The new general manager at Feyenoord that is also in charge of the new stadium project has said that everything between 65000 and 100000(!?!?!, yes, he seriously said that...) is possible. And it could also unleash a new Amsterdam vs Rotterdam stadium war.

When "the kuip" was build, the Olympic stadium in Amsterdam was expanded a few years later because Amsterdam couldn't stand the fact that the stadium in Rotterdam was bigger. Also the fact that the final was played in Rotterdam during Euro 2000 left some scars in Amsterdam... I think the people responsible for the expansion project for the arena will have close eye on the developments in Rotterdam. It wouldn't surprise me that much if we would have 2 70000+ or even 80000+ stadiums come 2018. It's not very likely but certainly possible.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:48 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by mavn View Post
http://www.google.nl/search?q=most+p...L_enNL241NL241

It's an endless discussion, but it's fair to say that on a worldwide scale those "little sports" aren't as little as you seem to think. Field hockey, volleyball, baseball, basketball, rugby and cricket for instance could be considered just as big if not bigger than the ones you mentioned.

In 4 of those we attend their respective WC on a regular basis (all except Basketball and rugby), and in 3 we're world class (in cricket were pretty much cannon fodder for the big teams. But hey, we're there every four years)
All those lists are quite pro american sports, maybe i'm wrong and they are also worldwide ... but an example: Lance Armstrong was an American, he won 7 of them, he was very known in Europe; Kobe bryant, not so like Armstrong ... it counts for every basketplayer. Basket is popular in America with a few nations in Europe but nothing like Cycling.

Baseball has to get more popular in Europe, I like it Maybe the next world cup rugby is for Belgium, we have the fastest growing nationbal team of Europe
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:02 PM   #96
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Cycling is pretty much popular in only six countries with areal history in the sport: Italy, France, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland and The Netherlands. It was popular in Germany as well but it went down as fast as it went up a couple of years ago because of all the dope.

I do think Basketball overall is a way more popular sport than cycling. Seeing it is big in the US and China you already have more basketball fans than cycling fans.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #97
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All those lists are quite pro american sports, maybe i'm wrong and they are also worldwide ... but an example: Lance Armstrong was an American, he won 7 of them, he was very known in Europe; Kobe bryant, not so like Armstrong ... it counts for every basketplayer. Basket is popular in America with a few nations in Europe but nothing like Cycling.

Baseball has to get more popular in Europe, I like it Maybe the next world cup rugby is for Belgium, we have the fastest growing nationbal team of Europe
When Pakistan and India play each other in field hockey or Cricket, There are more people watching it worldwide then the Tour of Flanders, Paris-Roubaix and Liege-Bastogne-Liege combined. Are those sports "anti-amarican" enough for you?

Yes, The whole world knows who Lance Armstrong is, but that has more to do with the hero story of beating cancer and then winning the Tour de France 7 times in a row and his "yellow wristband" charity organization then it has to do with cycling. Do you really think America (or any of the other non west European continents) watches the Tour de France? Even when he still competed? Nobody watched it. Virtually nobody recognizes him on the streets... They just now his name and like is myth. And do you think the whole of Australia can be counted as a Cycling nation because of Robby McEwen? Dream one. Why do you think he lives here and speaks dutch better than most native Belgians and Dutchmen do... Cycling is the biggest sport in Belgium (flanders) but in Spain for instance, in wich cycling is pretty big, basketball is probably bigger.

And do you really think anyone outside the six nations quintana mentioned has ever heard of Tom Boonen??? You say cycling is big all over the word except SE Asia. I dare you to find 1 person from those continents on this forum who knows who Tom Boonen is.

Cycling is a big sport in large parts of western Europe which attracts several good riders from other nations and continents (USA, Australia and Colombia are the only regular ones). But on a worldwide scale it's nothing. Basketball, Cricket, Baseball, Vollyball, field hockey, rugby, etc attract considerably more worldwide tv viewers.

The same with Athletics. Yes, it's (wide spread tv viewers wise) one of the Big 3 at the Olympics (together with gymnastics and Swimming (in which we excel)) And the World championship every 2 years is pretty big as well, but apart from that it never attracts big audiences. And, like I said before, Belgium is not better in athletics then we are. You have two athletes that win medals at international events. Of the top of my head, I can name 7 dutch athletes that won medals at international main events in the last 8 years. We're by no means an athletics nation, but we're better at it then Belgium is.

Last edited by mavn; November 18th, 2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #98
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One of the things I think this bid is lacking is the inclusion of an 80,000+ stadium, for the final mostly...or even a 70,000+ stadium. Probably the only weak point of the 2006 WC for me was the Final stadium in Berlin, only 70,000 capacity, but they had plenty of big stadiums to compensate for that.

But with a bid like this, when a lot of the stadiums are going to be in the minimum capacity range I really think such a WC at least needs to have a BIG stadium for the final...in the mould of Wembley, Nou Camp, Estádio do Maracană etc etc. My thoughts anyway, I maybe wrong.
The new Feyenoord stadiums aims at (give or take) 75,000 seats, this should be enough for hosting a WC-final in my opinion. I don't agree that an 80,000+ seater is required. Does it really matter that much when 20,000 extra people can be let in? Merely. It does take it's weight in the votings, but other things such as infrastructure are very important as well. Remember that people from all over the world will visit the WC, and those who are lucky enough to visit the final are just a fraction of the total ammount of fans that will visit. And the FIFA agrees, because they don't require it.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:44 PM   #99
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I don't know what the 'national' sport of China is but if they have it it would be also the greatest sport in the way you count ...

If you can show me that cricket, basketball or rugby is bigger in N than cycling I like to see it. your national sport is football then you have other sports like ice-skating,hockey,korfbal,swimming etc ...


All those sports are (not swimming) less popular (it does'nt mean it are bad sports or something) than tennis or cycling In W- Europe.


We can do a test, are there for the moment dutch sporters who are more famous than Henin or Tom Boonen besides football ?

I don't mean N is worse in sports but to say N is much better than B isn't true in my opinion ...
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Old November 18th, 2007, 03:49 PM   #100
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Cricket is the number one sport in India which has a population three times that of the EU.
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