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Old March 16th, 2008, 02:19 PM   #201
Slartibartfas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
IMHO the overcrowding in the U6 has much to do with the missing link between the central part of the U6 and the center. The future U5 with transfer at Alser Strasse would relieve much of the traffic.

I know that there are like 7 tramway routes connecting the Gürtel to the Ring, but look around - many people ignore them as a competitive form of transport. Thats how most of the U6->U3 mass migration at Westbahnhof with the center as destination is fed.
I disagree with seeing an U5 as solution to anything.

There exists a very dense crossconnection between U6 and the center via countless tram lines.

Those tram lines serve a vast area in the area of the U6 and beyond. An area a single U-line track can not even remotely replace. Nonetheless when an U5 should be built you can bet your right hand on it that the tram system will be castrated.

The result? For a small number of people along that future U5 line transport will speed up a bit (perhaps a few minutes). For the majority that suffers from the castrated tram network will end up with a considerable worse service.


To give you an idea what I am talking about here a little map: (all the yellow lines are trams)

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Old March 16th, 2008, 03:09 PM   #202
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@Slartibartfas

I know perfectly well what you are talking about and I agree with most parts.
Read again, I never wrote about replacing all tramway lines with the U5, or that it will solve every problem.

However you just have to agree that most people in our city are ignorant and biased towards the holy U-Bahn. People are simply blind - they only know the subway plan while ignoring and avoiding the great, and in most cases time saving, surface lines. Thats why the U6 "needs help" in my opinion... or an information campaign reminding of the surface lines.

A point I have left out is that building a subway in Vienna is not something you can switch on and off anymore. There are thousands of jobs depending on it, politicians using it for PR and thats why it will never stop if we like it or not...

IMHO the extension that makes most sense at the moment is the U5 simply because it serves the busy AlserStrasse/HernalserHauptstrasse-corridor AND it helps relieving the U6. Another point is that only the 43 tram would be closed, while the 44 would survive at least in the area west of the Gürtel.


Short: Wenn schon Arbeitsbeschaffung gegen die wir nix tun können dann sinnvoll, und am sinnvollsten (und mit den wenigsten Opfern im Oberflächenverkehr) wäre derzeit nun mal die U5.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #203
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The overcrowding is a result of forcing people into the U-Bahn in order to make it look like it's a huge success. Why will tramway 21 be abandoned after the opening the U2 extension? So people actually use the U2 extension.

I'm not an enemy of the Viennese U-Bahn at all, I just disagree with extending U-Bahn to every field in the neighborhood of Vienna and stopping service on tramways and busses along that area.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 07:19 PM   #204
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Every time someone is in favor of a subway he is treated like an unquestioning U-Bahn-Fanboy...

I am neither an U-bahn-fanboy nor a tramway freak - there can be actually something in between.

Example: The extension of the U1 to the north was needed - but only to Kagraner Platz. The traffic jams on Wagramer Strasse every morning were legendary and added 5-10 minutes to the journey of 25, 26, 24A, 23A and 31A passengers every day. The rest to Leopoldau should have been left a tramway as it already was on a seperate track with more frequent stops.

The same goes for U6 Siebenhirten, future U6 Stammersdorf, future U1 Rothneusiedl - they make perfectly sense to a certain point, but of course they are/will be exaggerated... pulled to the city border just to shut down the tramway...

U5 Hernals/Güpferlingstrasse is different in my opinion. It actually makes sense on its whole length and only one tramway (a busy one) will have to disappear.


I hope I made my opinion clear, if not maybe a german topic in the Austrian forum would help.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 08:18 PM   #205
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"Renaissance der Straßenbahn" - ORF ECO magazine about the renaissance of tramways, featuring footage of the viennese tramway and subway and insides of Bombardier and Siemens Transportation factories in Vienna (in german).

http://tram.afterdarknet.at/?p=36
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Old March 16th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #206
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Norbb, I just want to clearify this: I didn't accuse you of being a U-Bahn fanboy
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Old March 16th, 2008, 08:39 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
@Slartibartfas

I know perfectly well what you are talking about and I agree with most parts.
Read again, I never wrote about replacing all tramway lines with the U5, or that it will solve every problem.
You did not wríte that of course, the problem however is that a far going destruction of this vast integrated tram network will happen as sure as the amen in the prayer if an U5 should ever be built there. You might suggest the opposite of that or not, that won't matter, you know the city, don't ya?

Its the way U-Bahn enlargement works here, and in this area it will as desastrous as in any other place so far.

Quote:
However you just have to agree that most people in our city are ignorant and biased towards the holy U-Bahn. People are simply blind - they only know the subway plan while ignoring and avoiding the great, and in most cases time saving, surface lines. Thats why the U6 "needs help" in my opinion... or an information campaign reminding of the surface lines.
Maybe I am biased because where I live the Bim is just the way to go if you want to get into the center, and 14 min is not the world to get there either for living beyond the Gürtel. So actually I know a large number of people who appreciate the tram in fact and hardly would like to get a distant U5 anywhere instead of it.

My impression is that Viennese know the PT network in their own district very well, no matter if subway, tram or bus. Ok, I dont live in Trans Danubia where this maybe looks different, but thats another story.

I would not have anything against an information (or call it ad) campaign that shows the great advantages of an extensive tram network.

Quote:
A point I have left out is that building a subway in Vienna is not something you can switch on and off anymore. There are thousands of jobs depending on it, politicians using it for PR and thats why it will never stop if we like it or not...
Hm, I would not see it that static. You could built Stadtbahnen in the more periphery sections and invest the saved money in important other parts of PT or bike infrastructure. No loss of workers that way, at best a shift in work.

Quote:
IMHO the extension that makes most sense at the moment is the U5 simply because it serves the busy AlserStrasse/HernalserHauptstrasse-corridor AND it helps relieving the U6. Another point is that only the 43 tram would be closed, while the 44 would survive at least in the area west of the Gürtel.
... and for the reasons I posted above, this U5 would be the most harming U Bahn expansion I could think off. I sell you a free six pack of your choice if the 43 Tram will be the sole line that would be closed in that case. And you really think an amputated 44 that serves an U5 that serves the other lines, will be an improvement?

Quote:
Short: Wenn schon Arbeitsbeschaffung gegen die wir nix tun können dann sinnvoll, und am sinnvollsten (und mit den wenigsten Opfern im Oberflächenverkehr) wäre derzeit nun mal die U5.
Aus oben genannten Gründen wäre es mir lieber wenn diese Arbeiter aus Steuergeld bezahlt Löcher bohren und wieder zuschütten als dass sie eine U5 mit den zu befürchtenden Folgen bauen. Aber soweit muss man ja gar nicht gehen, wenn schon Geld zum rausschmeißen da ist, kann man mit dem gleichen Geld eine großartige Erweiterung der Bimlinien (massiv in Transdanubien zb wo die Bewohnerdichte oft eine zulassen würde), Radinfrastruktur etc
Aber bitte nicht in die Zerstörung dieses guten öffentlichen Verkehrs in den westlichen Vorstädten.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 08:55 PM   #208
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A really important investment would be to modernize the surface section of tramway 18 from Westbahnhof to USTRAB. This line could become a fast tramway (Stadtbahn) which would perfectly serve the new central railway station. In addition USTRAB should be modernized. If that would be done U2 extension (which doesn't even touch the new central station) wouldn't be needed. The saved money could be used to build a Stadtbahn/tramway system in transdanubia which would feed U6, U4 and U1 and would remove pressure from U6.
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Old March 16th, 2008, 09:37 PM   #209
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@Slartibartfas

Ok, I think I grasp more of your point of view now.
No matter how obvious the the cost (i mean the killing the 43) in theory is, the city hall will shut down as much as possible around (as there would be a station at Lazarettgasse maybe the southern leg of 5 & 33). Even if this map indicates that the whole 44 might survive (http://www.tramway.at/w/w2002-plan-s.jpg). Maybe I am to optimistic.

I based my enthusiasm for the U5 on the fact that I lived in the 17th district myself, and I can remember that going to the center was a true pain in the *ss. I do not mean Schottentor which was excellent to reach of course but it was still half-way to Stephansplatz, Schwedenplatz & Wien-Mitte. Transfer from 43/44 to U2, then to U4 or U3, etc...
People along 46, 48A and 49 are better off, as they at least have access to the U3 in the center, which penetrates the city much better.

The "tree" consisting of 37,38,40,41,42 is a story of its own - they are worth their weight in gold even if they suffer the same "Schottenring-Problem" as 43/44. I would still go on the barricades for them. However they can be optimized... I would bet my wallet that you are familiar with Harald Jahns Citytram: http://www.tramway.at/t-0200-30.htm

I totally agree with money as well as manpower beeing better spent on a tramway network in transdanubia, than for extensions past a certain point.


@rheintram

I am afraid city hall wont do that. They are on a hunt for "U-Bahnkilometer", and they are nowhere cheaper to get than using the existing USTRAB-tunnels. Before they modernize and create an efficient Stadtbahn-system, they will create an U7.

But fear not. As this idea has already been taken by ÖVP, it will die the death of everything that opposition comes up with in Vienna.
http://wien.oevp.at/13035/?MP=61-157
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Old March 16th, 2008, 10:36 PM   #210
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The ÖVP plan differs from mine, since they would turn USTRAB into UBAHN just like U2. This would be a fundamental mistake, cutting off several existing tramway lines, increasing travel times, making the system more costly and less effictive. Plus it would destroy WLB, the only Stadtbahn currently existing in Vienna.

There wouldn't be much to do between Westbahnhof and USTRAB. New traffic lights giving priority to the tramway. Some right of way tracks instead of streetlevel, maybe remove some unecessary crossings with streets and rebuilding/remodeling some stations both on the surface and inside USTRAB. And using modern light rail vehicles, such as WLB Type 400 or ULF.

I know it won't happen with this city government, but I pray (well not literally speaking) for a wiser one in the near future.
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Old March 17th, 2008, 01:28 AM   #211
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Thx for the link!
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Old March 17th, 2008, 12:28 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norbb View Post
@Slartibartfas

Ok, I think I grasp more of your point of view now.
No matter how obvious the the cost (i mean the killing the 43) in theory is, the city hall will shut down as much as possible around (as there would be a station at Lazarettgasse maybe the southern leg of 5 & 33). Even if this map indicates that the whole 44 might survive (http://www.tramway.at/w/w2002-plan-s.jpg). Maybe I am to optimistic.

I based my enthusiasm for the U5 on the fact that I lived in the 17th district myself, and I can remember that going to the center was a true pain in the *ss. I do not mean Schottentor which was excellent to reach of course but it was still half-way to Stephansplatz, Schwedenplatz & Wien-Mitte. Transfer from 43/44 to U2, then to U4 or U3, etc...
People along 46, 48A and 49 are better off, as they at least have access to the U3 in the center, which penetrates the city much better.

The "tree" consisting of 37,38,40,41,42 is a story of its own - they are worth their weight in gold even if they suffer the same "Schottenring-Problem" as 43/44. I would still go on the barricades for them. However they can be optimized... I would bet my wallet that you are familiar with Harald Jahns Citytram: http://www.tramway.at/t-0200-30.htm
You mention the Citytram, damn you. That was my planned response to your post

If you want to spend money, spend it on connecting Schottentor with the Oper via the Herrengasse. A City tram would be of uncalled for more worth than any U5 can ever be.

Apart from that I can't say I feel it to be such troubles to get into the city, the center is not that vast anyway, but perhaps thats also because I just enjoy walking there as well.
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Old March 17th, 2008, 12:33 PM   #213
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Are there people who think that that renaissance of the tramway has already reached Vienna? Is here anyone who thinks that this will happen soon?

I would be interested in your opinions...
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Old March 17th, 2008, 10:38 PM   #214
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Vienna's S-Bahn network - A really short introduction: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=105

@ Slartibartfas: No it didn't. Not at all unfortunately. In Vienna the terms 'modern' and 'fast' are associated with the U-Bahn by politicians and Wiener Linien alike. Sometimes I have the feeling that the tramways are deliberately made less and less attractive in order to make the achievments of the U-Bahn and the politicians that brought U-Bahn look better.
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Old March 18th, 2008, 10:40 PM   #215
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very nice, I will comment on this soon! (when I have more time)
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Old March 19th, 2008, 01:36 PM   #216
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Subway Line U6
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=445317 for more information and pictures!





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Old March 19th, 2008, 07:41 PM   #217
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Oh I love this subway station! I think it's amazing how the Stadtbahn Station was conserved and above it a new modern building was added!
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 03:25 AM   #218
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Quote:
It's such a pity that a part of the USTRAB was turned into U2. Tramway (Stadtbahn) with underground sections are way more flexible, cheaper and effictive.
SPÖ-Wien-stupidity for you.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 03:59 PM   #219
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Some rather random pics I took on a ride on various lines, a few weeks back:

Type:
E2
Line:
52 (eastbound)
Stop:
Diesterweggasse (14th district)





Type:
E2
Line:
52 (eastbound)
Stop:
Reinlgasse (14th district)




More to come.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 10:50 PM   #220
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Line:
10 (southbound)
Stop:
Linzer Straße/Reinlgasse (14th district)



The interior of an E1 train (line 10)


An E2/c2 on line 60 at Hietzing-Kennedybrücke:


E2/C2 interiors:
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