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Old January 22nd, 2012, 04:09 PM   #721
Slartibartfas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
I lived in Vienna for a year. I would often walk to the nearest U-bahn station, take the U-bahn (sometimes changing lines) and then walk from the U-bahn station to my destination. Such cases outnumbered my use of the trams by more than 10:1.
It depends of course where you live. Especially in western Vienna the trams make perfect sense. The city ends there rather abruptly at the Viennese Woods. The tram is slower than a subway, but it features more stops and you get many more lines for the same buck, hence you can have a much denser network. The important thing is now that the subway can be maybe 5-10 minutes faster in the most extreme case (because of the limited distance from the western end stations to the centre). In real life your journey rarely start in front of a subway station, walking distance to tram stops tend to be much shorter. That means real travel time is comparable between both modes from western districts to the centre, where you can change to subway if you want to go further.

Something similar is true for the 2nd district. The O-line expansion makes perfect sense. There is a single bus corridor in that part of town currently and there are being built thousands of new apartments. A subway does not pay off but some form of higher capacity mode of transport is needed to connect the closer distance, to the centre and to major subway hubs.

North of the Danube the distances are greater but also the stops less frequent or centered around greater population densities. There bus services would be vastly insufficient for cross-connecting the radial subway lines but periphery subway line would be a waste of money.

Subways are strong on mid to large range. Trams are strong on short to mid range. They make a great mix, together with buses on less important routes and on the fringes.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 02:29 AM   #722
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some mov from my last weekend in Vienna - grat city and amazing publ. transportation system



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Old March 22nd, 2012, 10:34 PM   #723
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some pics from U2 extension:

aspernstrasse:


an den alten schanzen:


aspern:









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Old March 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM   #724
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hausfeldstrasse:


seestadt:






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Old March 22nd, 2012, 10:45 PM   #725
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between aspern and seestadt:

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Old March 22nd, 2012, 11:05 PM   #726
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That looks pretty weird! Metro in the middle of nowhere! Right between the fields! Is it a developing area? Still looks funny, to build a metro line where nobody lives/works while there are so many zones not served by U-Bahn.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 11:19 PM   #727
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That looks pretty weird! Metro in the middle of nowhere! Right between the fields! Is it a developing area? Still looks funny, to build a metro line where nobody lives/works while there are so many zones not served by U-Bahn.


aspern vienna’s urban lakeside is a project of novel dimensions:

it is the most important urban development venture ever initiated in vienna and one of the largest of its kind in all of europe. the planning area covers 240 hectares, roughly equalling the combined 7th and 8th municipal districts of Vienna or 340 football pitches. the city is to be built in several construction phases over a period of at least two decades...


link
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 12:05 AM   #728
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Not to forget that north-west of that curve a substantial social housing neighbourhood is located - with maybe 20.000 inhabitants. The Seestadt Aspern is not the only project either, the whole area adjacent to this curve above is foreseen for construction of mid density buildings.

The reason why you still find completely empty spots like the one above is that the subway is to be the first thing to be finished. Of course that way it will be severely underused for the first years but people moving there can rely on it from day one. If you would wait with the subway, people would have no attractive public connection to the centre and get used to rely on the car alone. It would be much harder to achieve a good public transportation share that way. In the long term building the subway first could be the wiser choice.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 12:33 PM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
The reason why you still find completely empty spots like the one above is that the subway is to be the first thing to be finished. Of course that way it will be severely underused for the first years but people moving there can rely on it from day one. If you would wait with the subway, people would have no attractive public connection to the centre and get used to rely on the car alone. It would be much harder to achieve a good public transportation share that way. In the long term building the subway first could be the wiser choice.
Building infrastructure before residents move in is a nice measure. However, any government should me "mode neutral", not doing anything to shift the balance of modes in any direction, except as a response of market forces. Anything other that is social engineering.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 12:42 PM   #730
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Social Engineering done right, bring progress and balance in much shorter terms and with less "pain" to the public, then leaving it to the market to "balance" it out.
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Old March 24th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #731
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Building infrastructure before residents move in is a nice measure. However, any government should me "mode neutral", not doing anything to shift the balance of modes in any direction, except as a response of market forces. Anything other that is social engineering.
Only according to your ideology. Luckily no party in Vienna is following it. Vienna is that liveable city it is because its not governed by laissez faire capitalists.

It is interesting to read such radical opinions like yours, especially when I think about your own home country that is even much more into in-depth urban planning than Austria and Vienna. But maybe you don't like that either.
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Old March 24th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #732
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... Vienna is that liveable city it is because its not governed by laissez faire capitalists...
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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #733
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Building infrastructure before residents move in is a nice measure. However, any government should me "mode neutral", not doing anything to shift the balance of modes in any direction, except as a response of market forces. Anything other that is social engineering.
But isn't building highways to serve these new projects also "social engineering" which shifts the balance of modes?
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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #734
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But isn't building highways to serve these new projects also "social engineering" which shifts the balance of modes?
Government should build both And then let the citizens decide which to use.

Problem solved.
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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #735
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Government should build both And then let the citizens decide which to use.

Problem solved.
People will get both, even though there exists criticism for connecting every new neighbourhood with some highway connection (or quasi highway connection) as this is done at the cost of pedestrian quality, quality of life in the surroundings and the quality of connections between neighbourhoods. Of course this is nothing that seems to concern you.

As a matter of fact the road infrastructure will be standing within the next years as well. There is a targeted modal split however because the development is planned to have urban qualities in the middle of the very suburban district Donaustadt. For having these urban qualities like mixed use, pedestrian friendly environments, attractive public spaces,... at a human scale, you have to have a car share that is low enough to allow all of that. Failure in achieving this would fall back on the developers as well as their whole concept depends on that. Few would want to live there in that not extremely central location if the development would drown in car traffic and the neighbourhood should not succeed in serving with a certain mix of urban qualities by itself.

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Old March 25th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #736
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There is nothing wrong in creating an center-esque alike neighborhoods out of the center proper. Just treat the whole neighborhood as a compartimentalized unit that is connected by fast transportation (rail and highways) elsewhere. Actually, I kinda like this atomize approach in which each neighborhood (in topology term, regardless of actual administrative boudnaries) is a semi-independent unit that must be well connected within, but loosely attached to the surrounding areas.

Now, this aim to have "low car density" is abhorrent, the imposition of communist values on people. It would be like saying "I aim to create a neighborhood where fewer than 20% attend any religious service" or "we need to make this neighborhood restaurants a meat-free area".

Pure totalitarian imposition on citizens!
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Old March 25th, 2012, 01:20 AM   #737
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There is nothing wrong in creating an center-esque alike neighborhoods out of the center proper. Just treat the whole neighborhood as a compartimentalized unit that is connected by fast transportation (rail and highways) elsewhere. Actually, I kinda like this atomize approach in which each neighborhood (in topology term, regardless of actual administrative boudnaries) is a semi-independent unit that must be well connected within, but loosely attached to the surrounding areas.
Road infrastructure will be that way, but the Flugfeld will have connections in all directions for busses, pedestrian and bicycle pathways. Car drivers o the surrounding will be able to get to the Flugfeld of course, but the advantage over other modes will be minimal if existent at all. Its not reasonable to isolate the Flugfeld from the surrounding residential low density areas. After all it will potentially have a sub-centre function for these very areas.



Quote:
Now, this aim to have "low car density" is abhorrent, the imposition of communist values on people. It would be like saying "I aim to create a neighborhood where fewer than 20% attend any religious service" or "we need to make this neighborhood restaurants a meat-free area".

Pure totalitarian imposition on citizens!
Nonsense. There are some residential blocks that are all about bicycling, reducing the parking lots otherwise mandatory for bike infrastructure, and featuring more community facilities and other services in exchange. These blocks are a huge commercial success. Car fanatics that hate to ride the bicycle will obviously not want to live there. But they don't have to. The same is the case for the Flugfeld. Car fanatics have their wonderland just outside of it where they can have their not so great public connections, lots of roads, greenery, detached homes, few services in the very vicinity ... so no one who dislikes quality of life instead of optimized car infrastructure has to live at the Flugfeld.
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Old May 4th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #738
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Old May 9th, 2012, 09:56 AM   #739
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Old May 13th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #740
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Map showing public transport (U-Bahn and S-Bahn) in Vienna & suburbs

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