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Old October 29th, 2013, 02:18 AM   #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Same was done with Krivoi Rogs fast-tram when they operated Tatra trams, don´t know actual state.
Both Krivoy Rog and Volgograd still use underground crossovers. Krivoy Rog still uses Tatras nearly exclusively. Volgograd now use a fare number of double-sided LVS, but for second underground section, which has no grade-separated crossovers.
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Old October 29th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #862
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Why does the tram cross over to run on the otherside when it goes on the elevated section?
Will they put grass between the tracks where it only has the yellow soil at the moment?
1) Viennese trams can only be exited on the right hand side of the car, therefore two platforms would have to be built, if it wasn't for the cross over. This way construction is way cheaper, since you don't need everything (elevator, escalators, stairs etc) twice.

2) The earthy soil is most likely going to like this next spring:

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Old January 26th, 2014, 11:02 AM   #863
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Quote:
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Franz Kaida's retired. That's a pity but was unavoidable after so many decades. The sad thing is that the Wiener Linien opted for a much more reductionist and generic style. The Viennese accent is almost gone with the new speaker Schneider.

Kaida's voice can be still heard in buses and trams however, for a bit longer, as there is a longer transition phase.
I think Kaida's voice has now been phased-out completely. I was in Vienna over New Year and heard only Angela Schneider's voice whenever using public transport - U-Bahn, tram or bus.

It was strange not hearing Franz Kaida - as I said before he was, to me, the "voice of Vienna".
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #864
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It is not completely gone. Get in 47A for example and you will hear it.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #865
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I personally don't care who the voice is, both have their pros and cons (tradition in Kaida's case and clearer pronounciation in Schneider's), the only thing that really bothers me is the pathetic English of both. Is the City Airport Twain somewhat related to Mark Twain? Have someone else say it, if you can't. This is embarrassing for an international city.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #866
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Though you have to admit that Schneiders English sounds way better than Kaidas...!
The only thing that really sounds weird now is "Please leafe(!) the train"
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #867
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She can't pronounce train!
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:35 PM   #868
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I will pay attention next time...well, that really would be embarrassing...
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Old January 31st, 2014, 10:34 PM   #869
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Some pics by me (from November 2013)

Tram juction at the Westbahnhof:


Ring Tram:


Tram on line 18 at Wien Hauptbahnhof stop:

...and as it leaves the station










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Old February 1st, 2014, 02:09 PM   #870
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Some of that rolling stock look ancient.
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Old February 2nd, 2014, 03:24 PM   #871
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just the regular 30-40 years old and still working perfectly fine. Their only short coming is that they are not low floor. That is why they are being phased out already for the last 20 years. Probably, in another 10 years or so they will have vanished, except for heritage rides from the tram museum.
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Old February 2nd, 2014, 04:47 PM   #872
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They may look old but they are charming and perfectly working. Fortunately, they are still found often enough on the streets.
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Old February 2nd, 2014, 05:12 PM   #873
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just the regular 30-40 years old and still working perfectly fine. Their only short coming is that they are not low floor. That is why they are being phased out already for the last 20 years. Probably, in another 10 years or so they will have vanished, except for heritage rides from the tram museum.
Probably also less energy efficient than the current generation of rolling stock.
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Old February 3rd, 2014, 10:36 PM   #874
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Probably also less energy efficient than the current generation of rolling stock.
Would be interesting to check. Why do you think so? Electric engines have little room for further efficiency improvements because they have been extremely efficient for a long time.

Judging by the power of the electric engines energy consumption of old and new models seem to be fairly similar. Per passenger the old units even seem to have slightly less engine power. Of course that is not a proof for actual consumption but its a hint.

And of course, if we are calculating energy costs you have to consider the life cycle as well. If you discard units already after 20 years you need a whole lot more energy for new units than if you discard them after 40 years (even if you include maintenance effort)
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; February 3rd, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Would be interesting to check. Why do you think so? Electric engines have little room for further efficiency improvements because they have been extremely efficient for a long time.

Judging by the power of the electric engines energy consumption of old and new models seem to be fairly similar. Per passenger the old units even seem to have slightly less engine power. Of course that is not a proof for actual consumption but its a hint.

And of course, if we are calculating energy costs you have to consider the life cycle as well. If you discard units already after 20 years you need a whole lot more energy for new units than if you discard them after 40 years (even if you include maintenance effort)
That's a bit more complicated.
It's true, that electric engine as per se is very efficient, and doesn't have much room for improvement. But what is really progressed for last 40 years - it's control systems.
40 years ago there was no real alternative rheostat-based control. I'm no specialist, so I can give only very basic insight of topic... The basic idea of rheostat-based control - there is a 3 power levels that achieves full efficiency (no extra waste heat and wasted electricity) - "serial connection (of engines)", "serial-parallel connection", "parallel connection". But only 3 levels of power is not enough for smooth ride, tram would accelerate and brake to rapidly, dropping standing passengers to the floor, going either too fast or to slow... So intermediate power levels are created between the main 3, with the help of resistors, that turn some of supplied electricity into waste heat. Right after the start, there are lot of connected resistors, but as tram accelerates, they are disconnected from circuit, until none left, then system reconnects engines in different pattern and connects resistors back, starting the resistor cycle again (e.g "serial connection, all resistors connected" -> "serial connection, lots and lots of resistors" -> "serial connection, lots of resistors" -> "serial connection, some resistors" -> "serial connection, few resistors" -> "serial connection, no resistors" - "serial-parallel connection, lots of resistors" -> ... -> "serial-parallel connection, no resistors" -> "parallel connection, lots of resistors" -> ... -> "parallel connection, no resistors").
It's totally OK for freight and intercity railways, where train may go at constant speed/traction for hours - driver set system to power level wit no resistors connected, so all the electricity goes into traction, not into heat. But this isn't the case for tram - it operates in start-stop mode due to frequent stops, intersections, street lights, traffic and thus spends lot of time with resistors connected into circuit, wasting electricity into heat.

The modern trams use semi-conductor-based control system, which can be set to any power level (not just basic 3) without using any resistors, which results in very smooth acceleration (in rheostatic systems there are typically about 20-40 levels of power, while in semi-conductor based, power can be adjusted by really small portions) and no extra waste heat produced, no electricity wasted. Such systems have very slightly lower base efficiency (e.g. at maximal power) due to loses in different semi-conductor stuff, but in case with trams and their constant starting/stopping, lack of need for resistors during acceleration results in electricity savings.

P.S.: If any of professionals have remarks and corrections - they are kindly welcomed, my education have nothing to do with transit and electricity, anyway.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #876
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I'm no professional either, but another area where efficiency might be gained is using lighter construction materials and thus decreasing the mass which needs to be moved around. That's the main way how airplane become more energy efficient...
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Old February 4th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #877
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But it would indeed be interesting to see numbers and compare 40 year old tram (in good condition) and a brand new one.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 10:07 PM   #878
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But it would indeed be interesting to see numbers and compare 40 year old tram (in good condition) and a brand new one.
Well, in Kyiv authorities claimed that replacing 70-80-s tram electrics with modern electronics can save up to 40% in better case scenario.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 10:11 PM   #879
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Interesting comments. It would be interesting to see how they compare in terms of energy efficiency indeed (in a realistic tram setting). It would be even more interesting to see some lify cycle foot print calculation. You'd also have to include the fact that ULF trams apparently need a lot more maintenance than the old units as well as causing more stress to the tracks. I think it is a very good decision that the Wiener Linien are going to switch to another model.

And would be modernization of the motor control be an option? Are old motors compatible with semi-conductor based control?
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Old February 4th, 2014, 10:40 PM   #880
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I'm no professional either, but another area where efficiency might be gained is using lighter construction materials and thus decreasing the mass which needs to be moved around. That's the main way how airplane become more energy efficient...
I doubt that. Classic Tatra T3, one of the most numerous trams of the world of 60s-70s-80s weighted 11,5 t per 10 m of length, while 90s-00s Siemens ULF (Vienna modern tram) 12,1-12,3 t per 10 m respectively.
I suppose it just not easy to make trams lighter without making it to fragile... And unlike plains, where mass is lifted and must be provided with enough energy to counterforce gravity pull of Earth, here it rolls using steel wheels on steel, which is really undemanding in energy terms, it consumes even less energy than rolling rubber on asphalt.
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