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Old April 25th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #3941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry1990 View Post
knowing our luck we will end up coming 4th this year and the Bluescum will probably win the Champions League
It's bad enough allowing the ARSEnal to overhaul a 13pt deficit, the thought of now missing out on CL football next season because of Chavski would truly make this the most embarrassing capitulation I've witnessed in over 25 years of following Spurs, topping the Lasagne-gate season and the 3-5 game against ManU!!

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can anyone remember a few years back they made up some graph with the average yearly wage of all 20 premier league clubs, i remember Arsenal and Spurs were 1 and 2, just remebered it cause i think it will be very important to tap into that in regards to corporate seating etc although obviously you dont want too much of it otherwise you end up like the new wembley with a terrible atmosphere, it all about weighing up the extra money of more seats getting better players or keeping world class players but on the other hand if you ground doesnt generate atmosphere it takes away the "12th Man " so to speak


and some of the older spurs supporters i assume it doesnt get any easier being a Spurs supporter in later life does it, im 21 now so i assume i will have a heart attack mid 40's due to supporting us
I was at Wembley for the FA Cup semi-final and was surprised quite how good the atmosphere was, well for the first hour or so anyway. If we could somehow afford a stadium of that scale but with the stands as close to the pitch as WHL then I'd be happy!

Nope, supporting the perennial underachievers that are Spurs doesn't get any easier. You just gradually become inured to the end of season collapses... ...
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Old April 26th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #3942
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missing out on CL football next season because of Chavski would truly make this the most embarrassing capitulation I've witnessed in over 25 years of following Spurs, topping the Lasagne-gate season
If we were to finish fourth and Chelsea were then to win the Champions League, it would cement our position as the unluckiest club, IMO.

First Lasagne-gate.

Then factor in the fact that, but for Chelsea's and Man City's sudden and unearned elevation to the super rich, Spurs would have qualified for the Champions League in four of the past six seasons (and would be a shoo in for this season).

Then, should it happen, becoming the first club since UEFA changed the rules, to have qualified for the Champions League but to be denied the chance to compete in it.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 12:29 AM   #3943
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You cant help but think that what ever compensation we end up getting from the fa when redknapp takes the england job wont be worth the 40 million of lost revenue we would have got for just playing in the group stages next year, no problem with redknapp who to his credit has been totally proffesional, for some reason the players just folded with the pressure. Just.got to pray that newcastle lose to city and chelsea
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Old April 26th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #3944
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Does anyone know how much income playing at the lane gives us each year? And the new ground will probably double what we make
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Old April 26th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #3945
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Does anyone know how much income playing at the lane gives us each year? And the new ground will probably double what we make
According to Tottenham Hotspur - Football Money League 2011 | Deloitte UK

Our average matchday revenue is £1.5million and we earned £36.8m over the course of last season from that revenue stream.

For comparison, ARSEnal's average is £3.5m and their total was £93.9m last season.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 03:47 AM   #3946
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Spuds......they only have to blame themselves. They have collapsed and been in poor form.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #3947
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If we were to finish fourth and Chelsea were then to win the Champions League, it would cement our position as the unluckiest club, IMO.
While I can't vouch as to the last part even as a Gooner I agree this would totally suck. In fact, if both sugar daddy clubs claim trophies this season that would, IMO, be a major blow to pro soccer in general. Am really hoping they don't win anything till FFP can at least attempt an impact at financial prudence and equity.

Course, having said that I've now jinxed us all, haven't I?!


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Old April 26th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #3948
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Agree with you totally i honestly would rather arsenal or united win things than city or chelsea, who wanna just buy sucess to a horrendoues degree we all know that if city dont win the league they will go splash another 200 million to do so, and chelsea have spent hundreds of millions to win the european cup while there "debts" disapered or there stadium got brought out for 500 million hardly fair on spurs , arsenal etc who run with sound buisness principles and really unfair on the smaller clubs like stoke, norwich etc
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Old April 26th, 2012, 04:46 AM   #3949
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Fair play to the championship for there fair play rules added yesterday , 3 clubs said no apperantly im geussing west ham, and leicester
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Old April 26th, 2012, 10:17 AM   #3950
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Just noticed new pictures on the official Spurs website for the training ground! http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/site...e/gallery.page
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Old April 26th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #3951
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Spuds......they only have to blame themselves. They have collapsed and been in poor form.
True.

But it all started when Capello resigned and the whole "Redknapp for England" shitstorm started. Up until that point, Spurs were flying. Shoo ins for the top three and outsiders for the title.

Not a shred of doubt that the whole thing massively disrupted the squad and put our forward momentum into reverse. Probably won't even finish in the top four now.

Could only happen to Spurs! We are cursed.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 12:21 PM   #3952
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can anyone remember a few years back they made up some graph with the average yearly wage of all 20 premier league clubs, i remember Arsenal and Spurs were 1 and 2, just remebered it cause i think it will be very important to tap into that in regards to corporate seating etc although obviously you dont want too much of it otherwise you end up like the new wembley with a terrible atmosphere, it all about weighing up the extra money of more seats getting better players or keeping world class players but on the other hand if you ground doesnt generate atmosphere it takes away the "12th Man " so to speak
I didn't see the graph but there's no doubt that the wages of the active, ticket-buying Spurs fan base will be up there, as JimB has mentioned. Despite a mid-table stadium capacity, our annual match day income is in the top ten in Europe because of good occupancy, the high prices our fans are able and willing to pay, and their enduring loyalty through thick and thin (and there's been a lot of thin over the last two decades), all of which makes our club one of the greatest of course.

I don't think the club will want to do anything other than maximise the revenue from the people and companies who can pay more. Atmosphere will not be unimportant to many of the people paying premium prices, even if they are not the first to sing their hearts out. It is also important to the reputation of the stadium associated with 'brand Spurs' that will attract them in the first place. Provided the club takes these issues in to account, there shouldn't be any trade off between premium income and atmosphere.

It's interesting that a layer of corporate boxes/premium seats was taken out in order to create the single-tier stand when the capacity was lowered (between the second public exhibition and the first planning application). In fact the removal of some 1,500 premium places of this nature accounted for most of the capacity reduction. I don't recall an official rationale for this at the time, but I'd guess it had to do with the club's own assessment of the demand for premium accommodation (rather than, say, transport or safety issues). Happily it allowed the creation of the single-tier stand, which will be a major bonus in the creation of atmosphere.

With this revised stadium interior, the initial planning application was submitted in October 2009. It hasn't changed since then. Leaving to one side the Stratford wild goose chase, two other important things have happened in the meantime that might have an effect on the demand for premium seats (and seats in general).

The first is the economy. Perhaps the economic forecast influenced the decision to reduce corporate/premium provision back in 2009. I don't know enough about this to venture more about the current situation, save to say that any hopes of a more rapid recovery seem to have been dashed by reductions in public expenditure and the ongoing Eurozone troubles. It may be the case that the anticipated demand for corporate seats has to be trimmed again. Or maybe hitherto more cautious companies are now factoring an extended period of no/low growth into their projections and are more willing to commit to limited hospitality. Or maybe the perceived value to business of football hospitality has increased. Or maybe it's decreased. I'd like to hear from someone who knows.

The second is our success as a club. Since October 2009, we have recovered from the Ramos period and finished in 4th and 5th places under the wing of Redknapp. Even more importantly we reached the QF of the Champions League last season, when WHL could have sold out three times over for the key home matches. We were even touted as title contenders earlier in the season. Just as important has been the style of football with many observers saying we played the most attractive game in the league. This is the kind of attraction that puts bums on corporate seats.

Despite a recent run of poor form the club has definitely moved to a higher level over the last three seasons. If we ignore the message-board misery addicts and the knee-jerk calls for Harry's head, the real world out there still sees us as a club that has progressively pulled away from the also-rans to become one of the 'big six'. (They still don't believe that Newcastle is anything other than a flash in the pan.) The bookies still make us favourite for 4th place. That's where the money has been going.

So, with a fair wind and with all else being equal, we should be capable of putting more ordinary and premium bums on seats. However all else is not equal in terms of the economy and the risks that lie ahead, and it's also arguable our progress on the field may not been consolidated sufficiently to say the wind will be fair. This is Spurs, after all.

Though the Financial Fair Play regulations have had absolutely no influence on our need to maximise revenue (pace JimB), they might have had an indirect effect on issues to do with stadium capacity. Even if they win the Champions League, Chelsea still have to reduce their deficit for the FFP. Their current form does not hide the underlying problems: they are recovering from the addiction to a big money subsidy. If Chelsea have problems in this regard then they are nothing compared to what is inevitably and rapidly coming down the pipe for Man City who have a massive deficit. In consequence for the next two or three years at least, Spurs, financially one of the best run clubs who have no problem with the FFP, might continue to compete with Chelsea and could well find themselves in more equal competition with Man City.

Thus in the coming period the FFP -- if properly implemented (an issue about which a few commentators are needlessly sceptical) -- should mean we have a better chance to compete for a top-four place. The chance has gone up from 'small' to 'less small': it's not big, but it's better. With the continuing problems of Liverpool and the enigma of Arsenal, our success is combining with uncertainties at all the 'top' clubs except Man Utd to make the situation significantly different from that in October 2009 when the projected capacity of the new stadium was reduced.

Back in October 2009, there was a much clearer 'top three' with a fourth, Man City, rapidly coming through on the inside rail. Our chances of CL qualification were significantly lower than they are now. The landscape has changed and in this context the club could be reconsidering the capacity of the new stadium.

Despite recent results, we have everything to play for both on and off the pitch.

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and some of the older spurs supporters i assume it doesnt get any easier being a Spurs supporter in later life does it, im 21 now so i assume i will have a heart attack mid 40's due to supporting us
Harry1990, for me it doesn't get any easier as you get older, though maybe I am gradually becoming more fatalistic. I've been through great times, then the awful decade in the darkness, and then more recently more good times under Jol and Redknapp. Our trouble is we have a memory, whether direct or through others, of the double, FA and UEFA Cup wins, of the ability to buy the very best players, and there are not a few of us who want all that back but don't understand the realities of football in the present day. It means that we didn't think Jol was good enough (despite not giving him sufficient chance and support) and now we are getting frustrated with Redknapp, forgetting that in points per game he is one of our best managers ever. OK, he may already be on his way to England but there are all too many loud voices out there in the social media who want rid now, and that is a crying shame.

The trouble with Spurs is not so much our fall from the heights, though that causes the ache of nostalgia, but our capacity to sabotage our own success. We're too impatient and in our frustration we damage the need to build success slowly, steadily and sustainably. It was a plague of the 1990s. We saw it in the Jol-Ramos transition, which set us back. I worry that this tendency is bubbling up again. It it's a curse, it is all our own doing.

Let's hope the club doesn't listen to the impatient fans and **** up things on the field again. In the laudable effort to save money and to manage a small number of failed high-wage players, miscalculations have clearly been made by the club about the strength of the squad leading to a dip in form over the final quarter (or so) of the last two seasons. This is a retrospective judgement. The problem may be inevitable. It's not easy for the sixth richest club in the league to build a squad that can compete for the top four places. There appears to be a reliance on too small a number of high-class players who run out of steam at the business end of the season. The keyboard warriors are throwing blame, whether at Harry's squad management or at Levy's transfer policy or at the FA for destabilising Harry when Capello walked out. None of these accusations are convincing. Harry's managing a shallow squad the best he can. It's a squad he's been given by the transfer policy which, in turn, has put us in this high position in the first place through prudent financial management. We're only disappointed because we've overachieved. The FA factor doesn't explain last season's dip.

Our efforts to be a top-four club without a top-four squad will inevitably result in stresses, strains and cracks when injuries and losses of player form take their toll. The club must not be consumed by recrimination. No doubt the blogs, message boards and websites are being fed by gossiping office boys from within the club. Here is our tendency to self-sabotage surfacing again. It's time to learn from experience.

That said, our owners will deliver a superb new training ground and academy in the summer and, provided they remain committed and the financing works out, and they make the right decisions in terms of design, we should get a fantastic new stadium in three or four years. They have an important decision to make about capacity and the balance of ordinary and premium seats. I don't envy them in this regard: it's difficult. But if they think they can have more premium seats then they must realise there is no necessary trade-off between atmosphere and revenues. Keep the single-tier stand: it's an absolute must. As a proper kop end it will help create an atmosphere that attracts the premium fans to the rest of the stadium. Indeed, if there is significant redesign, do even more to enhance atmosphere. It's a selling point.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #3953
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The Enfield local paper has an article about the regeneration of Ponders End, which is supposed to tie in somehow with the THFC new stadium. I'm not sure how - it's miles away. Perhaps it has something to do with the proposed new rail link via Tottenham Hale/Brimsdown.

http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/...next_30_years/

I can't help but feel that our recent collapse in the league - and the consequent likely failure to qualify for the CL when it looked a dead cert 2 months ago - is going to hamper the speed with which we can get on with the new stadium.

In addition to the cash (£40m?), there is also the fact that the club will have gone backwards in terms of European standing when it comes to attracting sponsorship and financing.

I'm sure that Levy's sums would have been done a while back, and therefore not be dependent on CL qualification, but this slump cannot be helping one little bit.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #3954
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I'm sure that Levy's sums would have been done a while back, and therefore not be dependent on CL qualification
This has to be the case surely? There's no way the future plans can be worked out based on regular Champions League income, not with two clubs with limitless cash, Man Utd (who to all intents and purposes have limitless cash compared to us), Liverpool (their recent shirt sponsorship deal shows the potential they have to become huge once again), and that lot down the road. Not to mention clubs with already bigger stadiums like Newcastle.

The last lot of stadium plans were predicated upon remaining in the Premier League. Flirting with Champions League qualification and only once acheiving it surely hasn't changed this?
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #3955
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This has to be the case surely? There's no way the future plans can be worked out based on regular Champions League income, not with two clubs with limitless cash, Man Utd (who to all intents and purposes have limitless cash compared to us), Liverpool (their recent shirt sponsorship deal shows the potential they have to become huge once again), and that lot down the road. Not to mention clubs with already bigger stadiums like Newcastle.

The last lot of stadium plans were predicated upon remaining in the Premier League. Flirting with Champions League qualification and only once acheiving it surely hasn't changed this?
Yes, undoubtedly, but the point I am making is at a time when we are touting the club around to attract overseas investors, it would have been nice to be able to offer an immediate prospect of CL football, especially when it was looking so good until recently.

We still might be able to of course.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:33 PM   #3956
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Does anyone know back in 2005, did liverpool have to go to the court of arbiration for sport to get a chance to compete in the next seasons champions league.

I think people are just assuming that if chelsea beat bayern in the final the 4th place team will just sit down abd accept, im sure that team whoever it is would win if it went caught. If chelsea win they should qualify from round 1 like liverpool did
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #3957
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Wishful thinking Harry.

UEFA changed the rules subsequently BECUASE of the Liverpool-Everton situation. If we finish 4th and Chelsea win the CL, we're in the Europa next season. There's nothing to challenge, the rules are now very clear and all clubs have agreed to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpo..._qualification
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #3958
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Does anyone know back in 2005, did liverpool have to go to the court of arbiration for sport to get a chance to compete in the next seasons champions league.

I think people are just assuming that if chelsea beat bayern in the final the 4th place team will just sit down abd accept, im sure that team whoever it is would win if it went caught. If chelsea win they should qualify from round 1 like liverpool did
I think that up until that season it was up to the national associations to decide who would get the spots, so it was open to interpretation and legal challenge.

To make sure there that no similar situations arose in the future I believe UEFA changed the rules and set it in stone that the winner of the Champions League would always qualify for the following tournament, no matter what.

So I doubt it's worth challenging as every member country and club knows the rules before they sign up, whereas pre-Liverpool's 2005 win it wasn't as clear.

-------

Beaten to it by RobH and his better written and more streamlined response
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Old April 27th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #3959
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In 2005 Liverpool and Everton went into a qualification round (like we did with Young Boys) before the proper group stages.

Everton got knocked out (and then got knocked out of 1st round of UEFA cup), Liverpool went through to the groups.

But that won't happen this time, we'd just get left out (assuming we get 4th anyway)
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Old April 28th, 2012, 02:07 AM   #3960
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I think that up until that season it was up to the national associations to decide who would get the spots, so it was open to interpretation and legal challenge.

To make sure there that no similar situations arose in the future I believe UEFA changed the rules and set it in stone that the winner of the Champions League would always qualify for the following tournament, no matter what.

So I doubt it's worth challenging as every member country and club knows the rules before they sign up, whereas pre-Liverpool's 2005 win it wasn't as clear.

-------

Beaten to it by RobH and his better written and more streamlined response


Just to clarify, prior to Liverpool in 2005, a precedent had already been set when Real Madrid finished 5th but won the CL in 1999-2000 - their association put 4th placed Zaragoza in the UEFA Cup and 5th placed Real Madrid into the Champions League. Real Madrid had a good UEFA rating/coeficient so went straight into the group stages.

AFAIK UEFA had assumed that the English FA would follow this model in 2005, but instead the FA decided to play silly buggers and put Everton through, and then lobby on Liverpool's behalf. Everton's coefficient wasn't enough to put them straight into the group stages, so they had to play a qualifier against Villareal, which they lost. Liverpool were let in as defending Champions, but had to play every qualifying match from round one. However, as Liverpool had a good coefficient, having won the UEFA Cup in 2001, they got a relatively easy route, although they weren't afforded country protection for the group stages, and ended up in a group with Chelsea. For some reason, a lot of people assumed that Liverpool's involvement meant that Everton got a harsh draw, but that was never the case.

UEFA changed the rules to prevent an association from playing silly buggers again.
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