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Old November 3rd, 2013, 08:52 AM   #3081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Flame View Post
True enough. But those "instant hits" don't have the same kind of legendary status as the Eiffel Tower. Only simple, yet iconic designs that have been around for a long time can get to that level. It takes awhile for something new to be fully appreciated.
Oh, I agree. I actually looked at http://www.hillmanwonders.com/index.htm to see what the Top 100 Wonders are in his expert opinion. Eiffel Tower is number 86. The only wonders that are both more recent (post 1889) and higher in the rankings are:

84 New York Skyline
39 Burj Khalifa
37 Hong Kong

We're not getting a sculpture that can singlehandlely compete with the New York or Hong Kong skylines and we're not getting a sculpture topping 818 meters. So unless this sculpture is mind blowingly visionary, which I highly doubt, it's fairly safe to assume we'll be getting a minor attraction.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 02:42 PM   #3082
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This great shot shows, among other things, the MP District and the HY. Obviously, this area will be vastly different in several years.

image hosted on flickr

Maskiriva77

image hosted on flickr

Maskirova77
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 04:52 PM   #3083
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Unrecognizable in 20 years.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 10:37 PM   #3084
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With all the changes about to occur in the Hudson Yards, and indeed all along the High Line, I expect to see a park created on landfill in the Hudson in the next decade or so. A nice green space about 200 yards wide and a mile or two long would be a great addition to Manhattan. Sure, there would be environmental lawsuits and concerns about the hydrology of the Hudson, but these can be overcome eventually.




Many people don't realize how much landfill occurred down by the Trade Center.





These pics are from 1982-84:










It's a lot easier to create landfill for a park than to support 750-foot skyscrapers. Plus they could rim the western edges of the new park with 12-15-foot walls to create a storm barrier for that part of Manhattan.
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #3085
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Is there anything planned for the two blocks south of phase 2?
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Old November 3rd, 2013, 11:24 PM   #3086
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Those lots are owned by municipal entities. They will be redeveloped.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 02:01 PM   #3087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSky View Post
..

Many people don't realize how much landfill occurred down by the Trade Center.
..
It's a lot easier to create landfill for a park than to support 750-foot skyscrapers. Plus they could rim the western edges of the new park with 12-15-foot walls to create a storm barrier for that part of Manhattan.
I thought the landfill areas were worst hit by Sandy?
They are closest to the water of course but probably not to well protected?
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Old November 4th, 2013, 06:11 PM   #3088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Offereins View Post
I thought the landfill areas were worst hit by Sandy?
They are closest to the water of course but probably not to well protected?
The exact opposite. The landfill areas (Battery Park City, mainly) were built to withstand flooding and fared very well during Sandy, better than a lot of natural land nearby. Similar was true in other parts of the city, like the Arverne-by-the-Sea development in the Rockaways (not landfill, but a new development that did far better than the older developments in the area because it had been equipped with a variety of flood-resistant features).

The areas of lower Manhattan that did worst were mostly on the east/southeast side of the Financial District, plus the area up by the Holland Tunnel and the northeastern corner of Alphabet City. Those places are sort of landfill, but they were built on in the later 19th and early 20th centuries (filling in old marshlands and creeks), and were thus not designed to modern standards.

Here's a map: http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/...hurricane.html. If you zoom in, you can see that most of Battery Park City was not flooded at all, but the original shoreline to the east (basically, along West St) was.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 06:37 PM   #3089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Offereins View Post
I thought the landfill areas were worst hit by Sandy?
They are closest to the water of course but probably not to well protected?
I think it's just a function of how high the landfilled areas were built. I assume that the 1800s landfilled areas were not "designed" to any modern standard/accepted practice.

AFAIK, Battery Park City (1960s/70s landfill in McSky's ancient-looking photos) did fairly well, though the WTC & the historic Verizon building just north of 1 WTC flooded. I assume that flooding was via the late 1800's Hudson River bulkhead/seawall/etc.

The US Army Corps of Engineers states:
Quote:
The terms bulkhead and seawall are often used interchangeably. However, a bulkhead is
primarily intended to retain or prevent sliding of the land, while protecting the upland
area against wave action is of secondary importance. Seawalls, on the other hand, are
more massive structures whose primary purpose is interception of waves. Bulkheads may
be either cantilevered or anchored (like sheetpiling) or gravity structures (such as rock-
filled timber cribs). Their use is limited to those areas where wave action can be resisted
by such materials (USACE 1995:1-1).
This specific old seawall that was covered by the BPC/WTC construction was exposed when they excavated under the west side of West St. This excavation was for the construction of the newly opened West Concourse:
www.nytimes.com/2008/05/25/nyregion/25hudson.html?_r=0
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Old November 4th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #3090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastConformist View Post
The exact opposite. The landfill areas (Battery Park City, mainly) were built to withstand flooding and fared very well during Sandy, better than a lot of natural land nearby. Similar was true in other parts of the city, like the Arverne-by-the-Sea development in the Rockaways (not landfill, but a new development that did far better than the older developments in the area because it had been equipped with a variety of flood-resistant features).

The areas of lower Manhattan that did worst were mostly on the east/southeast side of the Financial District, plus the area up by the Holland Tunnel and the northeastern corner of Alphabet City. Those places are sort of landfill, but they were built on in the later 19th and early 20th centuries (filling in old marshlands and creeks), and were thus not designed to modern standards.

Here's a map: http://www.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/...hurricane.html. If you zoom in, you can see that most of Battery Park City was not flooded at all, but the original shoreline to the east (basically, along West St) was.
Thanks for the map. The "original shoreline to the east, basically, along West St)" is old landfill. The shoreline when the Dutch got here ~400 years ago was ~ where Greenwich St (again, recently re-built) was/is.

The idea of landfilling to the west of Hudson Yards doesn't sound bad. The West Side Yards did flood the old Hudson River tunnels underneath them but that was due to recent human activity.

Namely when the MTA built the West Side yards they cut underneath 10th Ave to connect the yards to Penn station. Previous to this the Penn Station pit had a western wall under 10th Ave blocking Hudson flood waters. Nowadays, if the Hudson floods into the yard & overwhelms the drains it flows down towards the 10th Ave end. Once there the water flows under 10th Ave, under the AP building and then into the Hudson River tunnels (under the AP bldg marked with my red M$ Paint arrow) which act as a FAR-from-infinite drainpipe for the flood waters. Bad things happen.

image hosted on flickr


The drains in the West Side Yard are supposed to be improved and this might (pure speculation on my part) be part of the drain relocation they had to do for the current Amtrak gateway tunnel box construction.

Last edited by solgoldberg; November 4th, 2013 at 10:07 PM.
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Old November 4th, 2013, 10:22 PM   #3091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSky View Post
....

Many people don't realize how much landfill occurred down by the Trade Center.


Interestingly, Lower Manhattan has been growing by landfill for hundreds of years. Castle Clinton used to be on an island off the coast of Manhattan. (It was used as a fort during the War of 1812.). Now, it's connected to Manhattan.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 02:42 AM   #3092
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I had a friend who lived on Greenwich Street, and he told me that Hudson St. was the original shoreline of Manhattan on the west side. On the other side, it was at Pearl Street during colonial times:




Map showing landfill over the centuries:




With all the residents and workers coming to the west side, I think a park on landfill in the Hudson will happen. And that will increase property values and rents, so developers and landlords will probably support it, for the most part.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 03:25 AM   #3093
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Thanks, McSky. Those are great graphics and images. I love seeing images of NY in the 1600s.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #3094
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Also echo RW's sentiment on the images; fantastic! Do you have a source? Would love to do a post on the potential at the HY & those maps are perfect examples of how it has been done in the past & should be a practice in the future.

If you look at surge maps of Sandy, filling in the land on the West Side would protect against future events, as well - basically extending BPC up to the north, and adding in some minor elevation to BPC's south end. This is basically the same concept as Bloomberg's Seaport City, but for the West Side. I think it's not only viable, but necessary - we have no land in Manhattan!

Using the excavated materials from the Hudson Boulevard towers will be practical, as well.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #3095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babybackribs2314 View Post
Also echo RW's sentiment on the images; fantastic! Do you have a source? Would love to do a post on the potential at the HY & those maps are perfect examples of how it has been done in the past & should be a practice in the future.

If you look at surge maps of Sandy, filling in the land on the West Side would protect against future events, as well - basically extending BPC up to the north, and adding in some minor elevation to BPC's south end. This is basically the same concept as Bloomberg's Seaport City, but for the West Side. I think it's not only viable, but necessary - we have no land in Manhattan!

Using the excavated materials from the Hudson Boulevard towers will be practical, as well.

I did a Google search for "Manhattan landfill".

Here is an article about Sandy basically reaching the old contours of Manhattan (where I found the landfill graphic with the years listed):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...400-years.html


Here's a page with a gif of maps of Manhattan as it expands over 250 years. Also scroll down to see some maps from the 1600s and 1700s:

http://gizmodo.com/watch-new-york-ci...ears-496440467


Here's the Pearl Street source:

http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.co...-got-its-name/


Saving a 1770 map of NYC (NYT):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/17/ny...anted=all&_r=0


As to the potential to protect against future storms, putting a park along the Hudson would be a way to do help with that. Imagine an undulating area with small hills, with its base 5 feet above West St., and with a sturdy sea wall at least 10 feet high. Such a park would compensate in part for the loss of open space and views due to so much building right along the High Line.
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Old November 5th, 2013, 05:35 AM   #3096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSky View Post
I had a friend who lived on Greenwich Street, and he told me that Hudson St. was the original shoreline of Manhattan on the west side.

...

Map showing landfill over the centuries:




With all the residents and workers coming to the west side, I think a park on landfill in the Hudson will happen. And that will increase property values and rents, so developers and landlords will probably support it, for the most part.
Though not stated, I was reffering to the shoreline @ the WTC site, due to all the WTC/BPC landfill photos. I based that Greenwich St claim on articles related to the discovery of the remains of Adrian Block's beached ship Tyger near Greenwich & Dey. The ship had been beached in 1613 due to a fire. It's remains were discovered in 1916 when the IRT subway was extended down to South Ferry
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Old November 6th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #3097
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Landfilling in operation

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
Interestingly, Lower Manhattan has been growing by landfill for hundreds of years. Castle Clinton used to be on an island off the coast of Manhattan. (It was used as a fort during the War of 1812.). Now, it's connected to Manhattan.
The ancient-looking photos showing the uncompleted Battery Park City don't show the gritty details of modern? landfilling. The photo below from wavz13's flickr photostream show that operation, with two conveyer belts & two screeners in operation. The post-industrial ruins of Jersey City, NJ are across the Hudson in the photos.

Early '70s landfilling of Battery Park City
image hosted on flickr

Original wavz13 photo scan: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wavz13/...n/photostream/

And here's the BPC landfill ~10 years in the future, captured in a better light during a 1982 art performance:


Photo: Robin Holland/RobinHolland.com via Tribeca Online
http://tribecatrib.com/content/beach...un-art-and-fun

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Old November 7th, 2013, 03:24 AM   #3098
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The Expansive Designs of Landscape Architect Thomas Woltz
With his highest-profile project to date, the greening of New York City's $15 billion Hudson Yards development, WSJ. Magazine's Design Innovator of 2013 is tapping into the power of a well-designed urban landscape to reveal our shared history—and find a more harmonious future
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...37713261504496

Quote:
Hudson Yards is the brainchild of real-estate mogul Stephen Ross, founder and chairman of Related Companies, and this, his latest mega-development, is being hailed as the largest real-estate project in American history. It consists of more than 13 million square feet of mixed-use real estate, 850,000 square feet of retail, 5,000 residential units, a school, cinema, restaurants, fresh markets, a hotel and as many as 12 "supertowers" by brand-name architects like David Childs, William Pedersen and Elizabeth Diller. With the first stage slated for completion in 2018, it is already garnering comparisons to Rockefeller Center. Woltz and his firm, who were selected over several more established firms competing for the commission, play no small part in the orchestration. He points to the middle of the site, where the Public Square, a 6.5-acre plaza of his design, will be built, describing it as "the city's living room" filled with lush gardens, formal allées and beds of blooming flowers, all laid out in sweeping geometric patterns with fountains, cafés and space for outdoor art exhibitions and events.....read more in link:
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Hudson Yards mega development Map: June 2015
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(click again once inside to enlarge the map)

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Old November 8th, 2013, 01:13 AM   #3099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
The Expansive Designs of Landscape Architect Thomas Woltz
With his highest-profile project to date, the greening of New York City's $15 billion Hudson Yards development, WSJ. Magazine's Design Innovator of 2013 is tapping into the power of a well-designed urban landscape to reveal our shared history—and find a more harmonious future
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...37713261504496
Thanks for the post. The article also mentions the cooling systems that will be installed to keep the rail yard/platform cpmfortable once the heat of the trains & substation is trapped by the platform.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 05:10 PM   #3100
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A bit off topic but on the subject of landfill...part of the FDR drive from 23 to 34 st was landfill created from debris from Bristol England during world war II. US supply ships returning from runs to the UK would load up with rubble cleared from the bombing of Bristol for ballast...which was then used to fill in along the East River...interesting bit of history

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