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Old November 22nd, 2007, 10:07 AM   #21
Ebola
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It's great to know that construction may start as early as a year from now, but it may take till about 2026 to complete the entire West Side and ten years to build some of these props. This project is just a part of the West Side CBD. NY will constantly be building supertalls from about four years ago to 2020 and on. This month alone, we have seen 4+ new NY supertalls.

This is the last large piece of space on Manhattan, so there will be many, many more skyscrapers to come.

Last edited by Ebola; November 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 12:22 PM   #22
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My fav is this one (SOM?)
http://www.pbase.com/image/89165247.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/89165248.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/89165255.jpg

2nd fav
http://www.pbase.com/image/89193230.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/89193181.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/89193209.jpg
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 02:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JACK NAPIER View Post
You all must understand that these proposals are intended to show the public/City the layout of the plan and massing of the towers. The actual design will be revised once a descision is met. The Brookfield/SOM and Vornando/FX&Fowle plans are the most anticipated proposals + aesthetically pleasing on the eye.
Anyhow, this for the moment is already stunning. Grandiose.
Brookfield is the one to pick by far.


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Originally Posted by JACK NAPIER View Post
This MEGAPROJECT and the MSG site will be easily larger than the majority of cities on earth now including mores square footage than Paris La defense and London Canary Warf combined. This is sure and absolute Madness!!!

Are you sure about this? Present day La Défense & Canary Warf maybe...? But both sites will undergo quite a bit of change in the coming decade. Comparing them to NY as a whole would be absurd, but comparing them together in ten years to this ONE area... even if every tower discussed at the moment eventually gets built... That might be 'a bit' too far-streching.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 04:42 PM   #24
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This is unbelievable!!!

crazy, stunning, big, great designs... but above all SO MANY SKYCRAPERS IN ONE TIME

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Old November 22nd, 2007, 04:51 PM   #25
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Yet more supertalls for New York?? The city will hopefully reclaim its position above Hong Kong...
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 05:18 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by chjbolton View Post
Are you sure about this? Present day La Défense & Canary Warf maybe...? But both sites will undergo quite a bit of change in the coming decade. Comparing them to NY as a whole would be absurd, but comparing them together in ten years to this ONE area... even if every tower discussed at the moment eventually gets built... That might be 'a bit' too far-streching.

Are you sure about this? The area will be one of the top four biggest CBDs in the US. Keep in mind that what you're seeing now is only a fraction of everything and the whole thing may not be wholly completed for over 20 years. I think it's more than likely that all of the new skyscrapers in the area would be enough to blow a combined future La Défense and Canary Warf away. From what I know, this proposal is only a section of the rail yards, plus there are three more supertalls and some more other 500-800' tall buildings proposed and approved in the area right now, and there will be many more. A block behind the superblock of this will hopefully be the superblocks of the MSG, which is another completely different project which should have two to three supertalls; I already know that an early version has a 1,240' and 1,340' towers to their roofs, and then there's also a massing elevation of a 1,600' tall building to the roof. It was clearly well over twice the height of 1 Penn Plaza. As the towers get closer to the Empire State Building, they get taller - from about 400 feet tall by the water, to as much as about 1,400 feet tall and perhaps even 1,550+ with any luck. This is all so big that it almost starts to blow away the the half of the LM skyline with the WTC. We're talking about at least four new supertalls, perhaps as much as seven or eight or nine - more than most cities on this planet will ever have; there are six proposed for sure now, but many more will come, and literally dozens of 500-footers and up. All I know is that you can sum this all up in one way: skyscraper mania.

Last edited by Ebola; November 22nd, 2007 at 05:24 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 05:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebola View Post
Are you sure about this? The area will be one of the top four biggest CBDs in the US. Keep in mind that what you're seeing now is only a fraction of everything and the whole thing may not be wholly completed for over 20 years. I think it's more than likely that all of the new skyscrapers in the area would be enough to blow a combined future La Défense and Canary Warf away. From what I know, this proposal is only a section of the rail yards, plus there are three more supertalls and some more other 500-800' tall buildings proposed and approved in the area right now, and there will be many more. A block behind the superblock of this will hopefully be the superblocks of the MSG, which is another completely different project which should have two to three supertalls; I already know that an early version has a 1,240' and 1,340' towers to their roofs, and then there's also a massing elevation of a 1,600' tall building to the roof. It was clearly well over twice the height of 1 Penn Plaza. As the towers get closer to the Empire State Building, they get taller - from about 400 feet tall by the water, to as much as about 1,400 feet tall and perhaps even 1,550+ with any luck. This is all so big that it almost starts to blow away the the half of the LM skyline with the WTC. We're talking about at least four new supertalls, perhaps as much as seven or eight or nine - more than most cities on this planet will ever have; there are six proposed for sure now, but many more will come, and literally dozens of 500-footers and up. All I know is that you can sum this all up in one way: skyscraper mania.
Which tower is supposed to be 1600ft - the one on top of the today's MSG?
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 05:52 PM   #28
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, that is unbelievable!!!
btw, is that the Con-Ed site?


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Yet more supertalls for New York?? The city will hopefully reclaim its position above Hong Kong...
, you can be sure about that!
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 05:59 PM   #29
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Brookfield Crowd Favorite in Race for West Side Rail Yards

by Matthew Schuerman
November 20, 2007


It was sometime late Wednesday, Nov. 14, that some of New York’s largest developers were told they had little more than 48 hours to prepare a public showing of their plans to transform the West Side rail yards, the largest available development site in Manhattan in decades.

They quickly reproduced compact disks, printed more color pictures, stuffed folders and packed up television sets. On Friday, their representatives got a look at the exhibit space—a little storefront across from Grand Central Terminal that Metropolitan Transportation Authority officials had found after scrambling themselves for a space that West Siders could easily get to. On Saturday morning, the five teams had two hours to set up.

The developers drew lots to see which wall they could use, and Brookfield Properties got a lucky number: the corner directly to the right as visitors walk in. The company’s plan, laid out in two huge architectural models, solves the problem of working with the two superblocks—each stretching from 30th to 33rd streets, on either side of 11th Avenue—by dividing them up somewhat with new streets or pedestrian thoroughfares. In so doing, Brookfield, which owns the World Financial Center in Battery Park City, violates the guidelines that the city and the M.T.A., the owner of the rail yards, set out for development.

But judging from the early reaction among visitors to the exhibit space, Brookfield has also gained a lot of fans, both via online message boards and among visitors to the exhibit, for a plan that they say looks the most like the rest of New York. (Brookfield is also the only bidder that has placed a company official at the showroom full-time to explain its exhibit to the public.)

“I’m looking for as much integration in the street grid as possible,” said Michael D. D. White, a 55-year-old lawyer from Brooklyn Heights who stopped by the storefront Monday evening. “I think people are paying more attention to focus on the experience that Jane Jacobs wrote about. She’s cycling back into fashion. I think we want to have an experience that is intricate and various and accounts for complexity.”

M.T.A.’s chief executive and executive director, Elliot (Lee) Sander, said at the Sunday press unveiling of the exhibit that the developers’ design would be one of three elements on which the agency would base its decision, along with the amount of money the bidder is offering and the feasibility of construction. But the M.T.A. has shied away from suggesting just how much weight each element will receive.

Steve Roth, chairman and chief executive of Vornado Realty Trust, one of the bidders, told The Observer that given what he expected to be a lengthy 10-year build-out, at an estimated construction cost of $10 billion to $15 billion, the M.T.A. can only afford to consider the strongest, most established companies. He would not elaborate, but clearly he thought that Vornado, a publicly traded company with $18 billion in assets, ought to be one of them.

“There are two or three of these that are done by teams that are really competent,” Mr. Roth said, “and in the end I think it’s going to be the financial part of the deal that is going to differentiate them.”

The financial arrangements are still secret. (The M.T.A. hopes to use the money to plug a $1 billion hole in its capital budget.) The tenancies are a little clearer. On that front Brookfield, which has no tenant lined up, stands at a disadvantage to other bidders who can argue that having a client and potential revenue source will force them to stick on budget and in the black.

However, Ric Clark, Brookfield president and chief executive, sought to portray the lack of a tenant as a positive, and an indication that it would be willing to pay more for the site.

“We put no premium on having a tenant at this point in time. We’ve heard that others have landed their tenants by offering cost-minus deals. We think that leaves some of M.T.A.’s money on the table,” Mr. Clark said. “In North America, we have more head office tenants than anybody else. What we do is move people around as their businesses change. They buy somebody or they sell off a decision. We have confidence that we will land a tenant.”

Whether Brookfield’s urbanism, outlined by the architectural firms Skidmore, Owings & Merrill and Field Operations, will actually cost more to construct or cause more disruption is difficult to judge: the plan calls for buildings to line either side of 11th Avenue, in keeping with New York’s street walls. But the M.T.A. and the city’s Hudson Yards Development Corporation specifically called for parkland in that area in order to minimize construction over train lines, which run east-west through the center of the superblocks.

Regardless of the weight that the architecture will receive in the decision-making process, West Siders and politicians pushed hard to open the bids up to public view. And while they are realistic that the architecture of the buildings could easily change, they say that much can be learned.

“I expect there will be changes during negotiations with the M.T.A. and the city,” State Senator Tom Duane, a Democrat representing the West Side, said. “I’m assuming that the general vision of the architects and developers and their priorities will remain the same: the orientation of the buildings, the High Line, the commercial versus residential, the open space placement, the impact looking north from Chelsea and south from Clinton. But I am generally pleased that the process and display are open and will continue to be open as the process moves forward.”

In that sense, Tishman Speyer, which has recruited Morgan Stanley as both a development partner and building tenant, is the most corporate, with 10 million square feet of office space, compared to just about three million square feet of residential development. The design, by German architect Helmut Jahn and landscape designer Peter Walker, makes various allusions to Rome: A large plaza in the center of the commercial district is being called the Forum, while a series of broad steps leading down from it is called “the New York Steps.”

Vornado’s partnership with the Durst Organization boasts the greatest number of residential units, with 7,000 rentals and condominiums, an unspecified number of which would be affordable. That team will build a new headquarters for Condé Nast, a company that currently is housed in another Durst tower, 4 Times Square. While boasting numerous environmental features, the Durst-Vornado plan would dismantle some of the High Line, an abandoned elevated freight rail line that runs down to the West Village and that would otherwise be turned into a narrow strip of park.

An unusual bid by the upstart Extell Development Co. clocks in with about 5,500 apartments. Designed by Steven Holl with landscaping by Laurie Olin, Extell’s design is the conceptual opposite of Brookfield’s, with tall narrow buildings forced to the very edges of the site to be situated over terra firma. The rail yards would be covered not by a post-and-beam deck, but by a canopy that would rely on suspension bridge technology.

Finally, the proposal by the Related Companies centers around its potential tenant, News Corp., which would be able to consolidate its New York operations, including the newly acquired Wall Street Journal, in a two million-square-foot tower. Related’s chairman and chief executive, Stephen M. Ross, has used that tenant as a means to orient the rest of the plan—a large plaza in front of the News Corp. headquarters would be used to screen premieres by Twentieth Century Fox movies—and a way to talk about what sort of neighborhood News Corp. could turn the West Side into—a lively, multimedia, round-the-clock, flashy focal point.

Mr. Ross used much the same strategy in bidding on the Coliseum site at Columbus Circle, by recruiting Time Warner to join him, and he won, eventually building the twin-tower Time Warner Center. It would, on the other hand, be quite a statement about the future of liberal New York if Rupert Murdoch became the pioneer of the new West Side.

http://www.observer.com/2007/brookfi...ide-rail-yards
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:01 PM   #30
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Brookliefd site plan

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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebola View Post
Are you sure about this? The area will be one of the top four biggest CBDs in the US. Keep in mind that what you're seeing now is only a fraction of everything and the whole thing may not be wholly completed for over 20 years. I think it's more than likely that all of the new skyscrapers in the area would be enough to blow a combined future La Défense and Canary Warf away.
You don't thnik by the time this is done CW and LD will have alot more stuff planned themselves? Canry Wharf has plans to atleast double it's size in the next 5 or so years (I would say, with the all the projects coming, it will be considerably more than doubled), think where it will be when this is completed in 20 years! Hopefully something will be done with the airport, and then much taller towers will be proposed too. I would take a guess at Canary Wharf being four times the size it is now in 20 years time. And of course I don't have to tell any of you what is going on with La Defense at the mo, I'm sure you all know already, it's hard to miss it around here.

I'm not too sure you can compare this with both La Defense and Canary Wharf combined, from 20 years from now. I do hope the best for this new cluster though. IMO the SOM one is better than the World Trade Centre Site.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:18 PM   #32
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^haha, funny that you didn't include the rest of my post.


Yes, JohnFlint1985, a massing by the city showed about a 1,600' tower (+/- 60 feet) to the roof right by 1 Penn Plaza and the other two supertalls of the new MSG plans.

Like I said, those supertalls will add to this new project, making this part of the skyline untouchable.


And whoever said something about the Con Ed site, there will be towers there, but that has nothing to do with any of this. I'm pretty sure that the Con Ed site had plans for two supertalls, but NIMBYs attacked it. That won't happen this time.

Last edited by Ebola; November 22nd, 2007 at 06:24 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:23 PM   #33
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^haha, funny that you didn't include the rest of my post.
Umm, why should I have? That was the bit I was talking about. It was only a few posts above, so if people are that desperate, they can go and have a look if they want. The fact is, you don't know what will happen in CW or LD by 2027 when this will supposedly finish, sure, this could be better than them both combined, but you have no way of knowing that. You have no way of knowing how much floorspace there will be.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:27 PM   #34
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The part of my post which you didn't quote explained why it's likely that what I thought is true. Not like you would agree, but I can't force anything on anyone.



Quite frankly, to me, it doesn't matter which proposal wins because anything tall there will be an amazing addion to the skyline. I like them all, but would rather see the Brookfield or Extell version win. Also, I don't mind the other plan with the 1,205' tower. The others are very nice too, but I would like to see taller, even though they are big, and I mean big.

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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:36 PM   #35
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I won't agree because I don't know what Canary or La Defense will be like in 20 years time. I do know they both have massive expansion plans, that will lead to massive increases in floorspace.

See you here in 20 years then, and we'll see what happens
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:41 PM   #36
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Can we please stay on topic?
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Yet more supertalls for New York?? The city will hopefully reclaim its position above Hong Kong...
with chicago closing in! ok not really. this project is very very impressive. wow
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:45 PM   #38
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It's great to hear that Brookfield is ahead of the pack in terms of the public's opinion (and I agree, it's probably the best all around). Exactly how much of a voice is the public getting though? Will their opinion get consideration? BTW I know that their showing this in Grand Central Station, where exactly in the station are the displays?
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 06:51 PM   #39
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I think it's more likely that Brookfield/SOM will win now. New Yorkers seem to like it the most, but not because of the tall buildings. It looks like they took the most time out to make their renderings and models look the best.
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Old November 22nd, 2007, 07:25 PM   #40
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agree. also for me it is by far the best proposal. would fit perfect in the skyline
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