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Old July 17th, 2011, 08:42 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Particularly, to keep a subway opened 24/7 requires a lot of expenses for a thin ridership.
On the contrary, it is expensive to close all subway stations for just 3 or 4 hours at night! Some staff has to clear the station, expel remaining passengers, lock all gates and so on.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #162
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On the contrary, it is expensive to close all subway stations for just 3 or 4 hours at night! Some staff has to clear the station, expel remaining passengers, lock all gates and so on.
Let me elaborate further: heavily used subway lines need frequent maintenance work, from cleaning to track inspections to signaling check-ups, plus all preventive and corrective repairs.

In many cases, it is pretty much impossible or too costly to do such work with a system operating, say, with a single line in certain areas at reduced speeds. Total closure allows faster construction when needed, also.

I agree there is a cost to "close" the system, but I'm pretty sure it is outweighed by the savings in terms of having a window during which all work and construction can be taken.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 10:23 PM   #163
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Why are respondents reverting to looping in here their nightbusses, this thread's about 24-hour metros?
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Old July 18th, 2011, 12:06 AM   #164
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I think it is rather logical: in US, the share of regular users of subway and train systems in places like Chicago, Philadelphia and New Your metro areas who don't own a car is far higher than in Europe. In other words, there are less households that have cars but use transit in US than in Europe.
Source? I don't think this is the case at all given that American car ownership figures are (generally) higher than most European nations. Carless households are perfectly common in Europe too - we were one and I knew of many others too.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 01:54 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Let me elaborate further: heavily used subway lines need frequent maintenance work, from cleaning to track inspections to signaling check-ups, plus all preventive and corrective repairs.

In many cases, it is pretty much impossible or too costly to do such work with a system operating, say, with a single line in certain areas at reduced speeds. Total closure allows faster construction when needed, also.

I agree there is a cost to "close" the system, but I'm pretty sure it is outweighed by the savings in terms of having a window during which all work and construction can be taken.
At least from the list of existing 24/7 or 24/2 systems you can see it works. You also have to count the additional paying passengers that use the night service. And the non-trivial work that goes into the planning and maintenance of the schedule of a night bus service.

I agree that a technical maintenance window might be useful for subway systems -- but mostly during the week. At least on weekends the night windows can be offered to the passengers. On weekends, maintenance work is more expensive, and the passengers' demand of a running subway higher.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #166
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I agree that a technical maintenance window might be useful for subway systems -- but mostly during the week. At least on weekends the night windows can be offered to the passengers. On weekends, maintenance work is more expensive, and the passengers' demand of a running subway higher.
24/2 operations are more viable from a technical standpoint. The most barriers are labor contracts and costs (I doubt any city that operates late-night services break-even with their additional passengers between 0h-6h).
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Old July 18th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #167
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Carless households are perfectly common in Europe too - we were one and I knew of many others too.
Ahh...I own a Ferrari and so do some other people that I know of...so owning a Ferrari must be a perfectly common thing, then!

As for 24/7 - 24/2 operation close to home: there were some plans a few years ago for 24/2 trial runs on the Amsterdam metro network. Probably not going to happen any time soon with the severe budget cuts looming over the city's transportation network, in combination with the recently shot down plan to switch to driverless operation by the end of the decade (would have made perfect sense for a small scale network).
Rotterdam has offered some around-the-clock service just recently with the North Sea Jazz Festival in town, but there are no plans to offer 24/7 service on a regular basis as far as I know of.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #168
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(I doubt any city that operates late-night services break-even with their additional passengers between 0h-6h).
How many subway systems do break even at all?

Subways can be very crowded Fri and Sat night.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 10:53 PM   #169
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As much that it is neat to have 24/7 + 365 day/year rail transport services (aka always open; never close), I only see them as privilege or an added bonus BUT never as something that is an absolute requirement or a right that must be granted by rail operators to people.

Here are some concerns that must be addressed:
-maintenance
Of course, trains need to rest. Do you expect these very same trains that have been running through the day (esp. during peak times) to do the same service at night early morning without giving maintenance or to do checks/inspections.

Also, rail tracks are also need to 'rest'. You gotta relieve them of strain and pressure. Trains have been running through a minimum 12 hour run. Do you expect these same rail tracks to take on further abuse by serving another 12 hours?

The only way I can see is that there are different train vehicles and different infrastructure for the night that is separate from those used during the day. Still, that would be expensive.

-Staff and employees when the sun is not up
You have to make sure that there will be people who are willing to work for the graveyard shifts.

So there

Btw, don't get me wrong. I too am open to the idea of 24/7 rail transport services that operates like convenience stores that always open and never close (like 7 Eleven). However, is this really an absolute necessity or requirement?

Oh and btw, the train is not the only form of transportation that people must resort to when the sun is not up. There is the automobile, the bus, the taxi......and of course, your human body where you can walk (though this depends on how safe/secure your area or locale is).

It's not as if it's the end of the world if you need to get to some place and the train services are closed. There's always other ways to transport or move around (i.e. the train is not the only mode of transport)
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Old July 18th, 2011, 11:29 PM   #170
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How many subway systems do break even at all?
Considered isolated, subway operations in London, Washignton (DC), Honk Kong, Tokyo, New York all break even with their fare box. I read a while ago that the London tube recoups more than 130% of its costs if fare were hypothetically shares according do distance traveled (for those using transfers).

Sure there is an accounting issue there as to how should transit agencies breakdown revenue according to each mode for connecting passengers, but usually it is the last mile, bus-based or tram-based network that hemorrhages money proportionally to the income they bring.
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Old July 18th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
Here are some concerns that must be addressed:
-maintenance
Of course, trains need to rest. Do you expect these very same trains that have been running through the day (esp. during peak times) to do the same service at night early morning without giving maintenance or to do checks/inspections.
Significant fast/light maintenance work is done off-peak daytime, to avoid increased costs of night staff shifts anyway.

Quote:
Also, rail tracks are also need to 'rest'. You gotta relieve them of strain and pressure. Trains have been running through a minimum 12 hour run. Do you expect these same rail tracks to take on further abuse by serving another 12 hours?
Not really an issue on itself. Rails and tracks components are designed to withstand a certain accumulated load over time. They don't need, from an engineering POV, to "rest" a few hours a day to increase their useful life more than the hours they don't operate themselves.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #172
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Considered isolated, subway operations in London, Washignton (DC), Honk Kong, Tokyo, New York all break even with their fare box. I read a while ago that the London tube recoups more than 130% of its costs if fare were hypothetically shares according do distance traveled (for those using transfers).
Where do you get that information from? MTA's accounts show that in 2010 up to September total fare revenue as being equal to $3.4bn ($1.3bn coming from tolls, rent and other sources). Their operating expenses are denoted on their balance sheet as being equal $9.4bn with salaries and wages alone equating to some $3.4bn, never mind general maintenance and running costs like energy (hence their grant/subsidy of several billion plus debt to cover the massive short-fall). Now, this is across all transport modes, but I somehow don't think it is bus network which is draining resources.

For London, the last accounts I saw showed Tfl needing little more than half-a-billion pounds to covering a funding gap in running the tube (and a bigger one of £600m to fill the bus black hole), but I'll need to check.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #173
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Don't know if it meets the criteria of 24/7, but the commuter rail system in Newcastle, Australia (CityRail's Hunter Line) virtually has 24/7 service between Newcastle and Maitland, with a 2 hour gap between trains between 12pm and 2am.

Nonetheless, not bad for a city of 500,000.
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Old August 6th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #174
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Yes, not bad.

Only as an idea, here's the criteria used for the MB 24h Operation page:
Quote:
To be listed here, train services need to operate nightly throughout the year, at least every 60 minutes. If there are night services only on special occasions like New Year, that doesn't count. And, of course, bus services don't count.
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Old August 9th, 2011, 09:13 PM   #175
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Also, LIRR, NYC's commuter service, runs 24/7 as well. I think metro North does too. Not sure. NJT commuter trains also run 24/7.
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Old August 9th, 2011, 11:52 PM   #176
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I wish SkyTrain's Canada Line in Vancouver was built with switching capabilities so that it could run 24/7 or at least 24/3 or so. .... Add to that, SkyTrain Expo Line, since it IS the backbone metro line of the system. You would think with automated trains you could do this.

At least, have it run like the current until 2am, then have a 30 minute headway from 2am-4am, then two hours of no service from after 4am to 6am on Fri, Sat, Sun mornings. On weekdays (workdays), the service could run the 'normal schedule' until 1am, then have reduced night owl from 1am to 2:30am, with 2.5 hours available for mtc until the 5am start.

It does seem a bit weird, that for airport employees who are enticed to use the Canada Line, that it stops running so early yet the airport ops and especially mtc is 24/7. You would think there could be some plan or provision for more comprehensive night service with automated metros, you could even put a driver in it during the night owl to guarantee track switching/ops if that is an issue.
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Old August 11th, 2011, 04:16 AM   #177
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Quote:
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Also, LIRR, NYC's commuter service, runs 24/7 as well. I think metro North does too. Not sure. NJT commuter trains also run 24/7.
Only the LIRR runs 24/7 , MNRR and NJT run 21/7
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Old August 11th, 2011, 09:30 PM   #178
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you could even put a driver in it during the night owl to guarantee track switching/ops if that is an issue.
Pah! asking that operator there for any human touch is asking too much of 'em all...
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Old August 17th, 2011, 03:41 AM   #179
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How many subway systems do break even at all?
None really. Most agencies count advertising and other revenue as part of the farebox recovery ratio...which isn't that accurate but allows them (at least in the USA) to meet federal mandates. Chicago (CTA) for example is required by law to have above 50% farebox recovery ratio, and it's nowhere near that (more like 20%). However, the CTA is allowed to use advertising revenue in their figures. NYC doesn't profit at all; no city in the US does. Nor any city in EU for that matter.

One of the agencies in Tokyo I believe is the only one that truly makes a profit, but I'm not positive.
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Old August 17th, 2011, 05:41 AM   #180
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Tokyo and Osaka make pretty significant profits....Hong Kong breaks even or makes a profit as well.
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