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Old December 8th, 2007, 11:12 AM   #21
ChrisZwolle
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I wouldn't say London has a poor infrastructure. It has a well-developed and efficient mass transit system.
Ofcourse, but we are kind of talking about roads here. Large cities do need a good roadsystem, despite of how large the mass-transit is. Look at New York, a massive mass-transit system, though the roads are still busy as hell there.

It's an utopia you can meet all transportation demand by mass-transit. I think there has to be a good balance, like you see in Madrid or Barcelona.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 03:05 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by wyqtor View Post
I really like Split and it's motorways. BTW, when I was there 2 years ago, the expressway from the city to the A1 was only 1+2 (2 lanes up the mountain, one down), not separated. Did they expand it?
I'm glad you wisited my city.

Yes...now that road is widened to 2 + 3 lanes.
It was a tough job, beacuse the terrain is terrible!
Almost the entire lenght of the road is in viaducts and tunnels...
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Old December 9th, 2007, 12:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Ofcourse, but we are kind of talking about roads here. Large cities do need a good roadsystem, despite of how large the mass-transit is. Look at New York, a massive mass-transit system, though the roads are still busy as hell there.

It's an utopia you can meet all transportation demand by mass-transit. I think there has to be a good balance, like you see in Madrid or Barcelona.
I think you are mixing up need with demand here. Of course, if you built megaroads in London they would almost certainly be filled up with cars ("demand"), but it appears to me that London is functioning very well without them ("need"). In fact, a common denominator of the most successful and important cities and financial centers of this planet (London, New York, and Tokyo) is a road system that is relatively underdimensioned relative to their population compared with other cities, but with a sophisticated public transport network.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by vancouverite/to'er View Post
Vancouver...a few tiny ones. Toronto..a few monsters
Right, vancouverite. Resisting freeways is a secular religion in Vancouver, and has been since the 1960s. The city taxpayers weren't prepared to pay for freeways in the City proper that would primarily benefit commuters from the suburbs.

Today the debate has changed a bit, but only a bit. Now the City of Vancouver and Burnaby as well don't want the provincial government to twin the Port Mann Bridge and widen Hwy 1, by 1 additional lane to a total of 8, for fear that might slighly reduce high residential property values enjoyed by their residents (untaxed capital gain in the principal residence), and might also lead to a greater dispersion in the industrial and commercial tax base to surburban municipalities.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 03:37 AM   #25
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Tokyo is an interesting example. For a metro area as big as Tokyo, it doesn't have that many lanes worth of motorway distance. However, it does have expressways going right into the middle of downtown Tokyo. The Shuto Expressway system (首都高速道路, if you want to search for it in Japanese) has a route map which looks like this:



In addition, the system is being expanded, and new expressways are being built or planned.

So, Tokyo may not have that many expressways, but the system does go right to the center of the metro area.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 03:49 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mate_Balota View Post

Yes...now that road is widened to 2 + 3 lanes.
It was a tough job, beacuse the terrain is terrible!
Almost the entire lenght of the road is in viaducts and tunnels...
Tvoj grad je lijep, ˛elim povratak.

Im impressed if that road has been developed. I drove on it two years ago and thought the terrain would never lend to being upgraded like that. Needed because the general traffic was terrible.

Really liked the tunnel underneath Marjan. That was an engineering feat.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 01:49 PM   #27
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Tvoj grad je lijep, ˛elim povratak.


Quote:
Im impressed if that road has been developed. I drove on it two years ago and thought the terrain would never lend to being upgraded like that. Needed because the general traffic was terrible.
Yes!
I would dare to say it's the most attractive road in Croatia!
The view is INCREDIBLE!
You're driving at the hight of some 60m....on a steap hill...lookin some 200m down to the Split bay area.
You can see all the way to Trogir...some 30km away.

Here is a pic taken by me from one of the viaducts:
[IMG]http://i8.************/6loa904.jpg[/IMG]

This is a small section of that road...just to give a general picture (some lower viaducts...and one of the tunnels):
[IMG]http://i16.************/6jx2fif.jpg[/IMG]

Quote:
Really liked the tunnel underneath Marjan. That was an engineering feat.
Oh well...it is quite usefull.
It connected the east city center to it's west.
But it's only one tube. Now they are planing to bore another one, to increse capacity.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:45 PM   #28
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i think beijing or LA has the most huge expressways and intercrosses system.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 03:49 PM   #29
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This is from Geography Lists. I know the writer of this book!!

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"Most larger U.S. cities are served by the Interstate Highway system (identified with that interstate shield). The cities listed below have no Interstate Highways within the city limits (or within 10 miles), though all have at least one other highway which is built as a freeway.

1. Fresno, CA
2. Anchorage, AK *
3. Bakersfield, CA
4. Modesto, CA
5. Oxnard, CA
6. Salinas, CA *
7. Santa Rosa, CA
8. Brownsville, TX *
9. Lancaster, CA
10. Thousand Oaks, CA

* These are cities that one must reach by using a road which is (for at least part of the distance) not a full-fledged freeway. "

http://www.geographylists.com/list3a.html
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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:07 PM   #30
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only the newish citeis will have the big motorways going right through em as there is no historic buildings to make way for them.London does have historic buildings therefore it cannot happen.Besides london releys on it's transport infrastructure which is pretty damn good.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:07 PM   #31
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Sofia is a capital town without many motorways connecting it, too. Blagoevgrad has no motorway, at least a 15 km long motorway like road as part of the E-79 but it just has 80 000 inhabitants.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 04:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Ofcourse, but we are kind of talking about roads here. Large cities do need a good roadsystem, despite of how large the mass-transit is. Look at New York, a massive mass-transit system, though the roads are still busy as hell there.

It's an utopia you can meet all transportation demand by mass-transit. I think there has to be a good balance, like you see in Madrid or Barcelona.
London Road Map



There are a couple of motorways poking their way into the city but it's mostly expressways once you get into the built-up area.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 05:49 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
London Road Map



There are a couple of motorways poking their way into the city but it's mostly expressways once you get into the built-up area.

just out of curiosity, would some of Londons expressways be considered as motorways in other countries? for example the North circular is mainly 3-lane duel carriageway isn't it? and roads like the A12
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Old December 11th, 2007, 07:54 PM   #34
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In the US, Fresno is the biggest city without an Interstate. It does have California Route 99, which is an expressway, and that road has been mentioned as becoming a possible I-7.

I've noticed in road atlases that Winnipeg has no expressways or limited-access highways at all. Can anyone confirm this? Vancouver also doesn't have expressways in the center of town, but there are expressways outside of the city.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 11:11 PM   #35
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Well, I think expressways are also often underrated. It is true that they have much less capacity than true motorways, but technically, a city with 10 expressways through it may have a much better road system than a city with 2 motorways through it and the rest just streets.

Expressways have the advantage of an increased capacity, safety, and speed limits, without the need to build huge space-consuming interchanges, the construction of which may not be possible in many dense cities (nor desirable, in many cases, since motorways are known to interfere with the lives of people living in their vicinity).

It is possible to design expressways without frequent junctions, to cut down on the number of traffic lights, or to build partial interchanges, such as an individual flyover for a particular intersection and traffic direction that is particularly busy.

For example, in Toronto (well, technically outside in the suburbs), we have Highway 7, which is technically like a major street, but it is an expressway with a speed limit of 70-80 km/h (as opposed to most main streets, which are 60km/h), 3+ lanes in each direction. The junctions are mixed, but are generally built to higher capacities than normal roads.

There are some junctions with regular traffic lights, but most junctions within urban limits have separate left-turn signals (something that is otherwise not common in Toronto), and others have junctions with traffic lights that only allow right turns from the expressway (to a road that later allows access to the opposite direction too), with the traffic lights acting only to allow left turns onto the expressway (although this is not allowed everywhere too). During rush hour, it is often more beneficial to take the expressway, as usually it flows faster than parallel streets.

Maybe we should open a thread about non-motorway expressways? Should be interesting However, currently, I'm too busy with exams to do that.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 11:13 PM   #36
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Toronto has some of the biggest Highways / Interchanges in the world
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Old December 11th, 2007, 11:13 PM   #37
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It's difficult to define what a "non-motorway expressway" is. Some think it has to have controlled acces, some other think a 2x2 with traffic lights is an expressway.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #38
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Well, I think a good definition (legal issues aside) should be: "A road with at least 2 lanes in each direction with a wider-than-usual or physical separation median with a higher speed limit than a normal street, and without (or very few) private properties directly encroaching on the road." For example, almost all major streets in Toronto are at least 2x2, and many are 3x3, and usually have a speed limit of 60km/h (sometimes 50km/h), as opposed to smaller streets, which usually have a limit of 40-50km/h.

But these main streets are not expressways, because they allow turning left from the middle lane (i.e. the separation median, a common thing in North America), have private driveways and shopping plazas directly exiting to the road, lower speed limits, etc.

I don't think that the particular type of junction used on the expressway is necessarily important to a road being classified as such, but generally the junctions are of higher safety/capacity, because they have to take into consideration the higher speed limits. But I don't think that complete access control should be a criterion, because I would say that if a road is completely access-controlled, it is a motorway in loose terms, since as you know, the particular criteria to be classified as a "motorway" (such as curve radii, shoulder width, etc.) vary greatly from country to country as well. Many expressways are partially access controlled, however, and that is fine.

In fact, it would be interesting to see pictures of expressways in other places in the world, and also descriptions of the types of junctions used.
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Old December 11th, 2007, 11:37 PM   #39
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I don´t understand that you guys imediatelly degrade motorway parts which don´t have shoulders all the time but all other features of a motorway as expressways.
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Old December 12th, 2007, 01:05 AM   #40
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no one here sees highway 7 or highway 10 or highway 5 as express routes...which may be seen as expressways to some...

Anyways I remember in Sydney i got on a motorway and I was like go fast to my cousin and.....

then there was a traffic light!!!

I was like what kind of highway is this???
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