The Seattle Streetcar Thread

[Tcmetro]

Why not add some of the simple connections and replace bus routes like the 3, 4, 8, and 43?

[jessejb]

I hope that when density increases the streetcar's hours will go later so we could feasibly use them for "going out and getting hammered in different neighborhoods" purposes.

[CityView Jim]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

you know td, as my current travel patterns stand i would use that map more than the light rail.

Keep in mind that the trolleys are nothing more than glorified busses (subject to traffic, lights, draw bridges, etc). Light rail will have better speed and on time performance.

Good job, drummer. I'd try to keep the lines out of downtown though. Leave that to the busses. A line from the waterfront to Lake Union Park along Broad Street and the other end will connect the ID with First Hill via 12th or Broadway. That's it!

[citruspastels]

oh i know! however, streetcars are a more comfortable ride than busses and this actually goes where i spend the vast majority of my time.

[Backstrom]

I've been hearing that might be a real hindrance to the Mercer Mess.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Thanks for the comments; I guess i'm just in a streetcar frenzy.

The only problem I find with a light rail is that it's "too big" for Seattle (as of now or maybe a decade or two from now). And yes, I guess you could say streetcars are just "glorified buses", but I think we'd all prefer streetcars instead, despite cost differences.

I am also wondering how the streetcar will interact with high-traffic areas like the Mercer Mess and Fairview/Valley. Some crazy guy stuck in traffic is bound to get into an accident with a streetcar...

[Backstrom]

Going through Mercer today, I noticed that the streetcar is going to have to weave through traffic a lot, especially during peak hours. You'll hear a lot of operators using their horn. I heard a report about how the streetcars are actually affecting light synchronizations down Mercer, which really makes the mess more a disaster.

[kub86]

When will Tacoma's current "link light rail" be properly called a streetcar à la SLU, First Hill, and other future streetcar networks that use the same trains and tracks?? It could confuse people.

I'm skeptical of the SLU line. It looked painfully slow coming up to westlake station and the crowds coming off the train seemed Really relieved to finally get off. I hope future lines involve dedicated ROWs.

[SteveM]

Originally Posted by kub86

I'm skeptical of the SLU line. It looked painfully slow coming up to westlake station and the crowds coming off the train seemed Really relieved to finally get off. I hope future lines involve dedicated ROWs.

I think one of the keys is going to be sharing enough ROW between multiple routes to make dedicated ROW make sense. A trolley every 15 minutes is not a good use of dedicated ROW. But a trolley every 3-5 minutes might be -- maybe increased frequency on this line and the addition of another trolley on the west side of Lake Union and following Westlake from Valley to downtown could start to make ROW dedication in the SLU area possible.

As another anecdote, I rode the line today and found the downtown-Denny section interminable but the Denny-Fred Hutch section pretty quick. I think the traffic lights along the downtown-Denny section (where Westlake is misaligned with the grid) will probably get better with signal pre-emption turned on, but without it, the trolley barely beats walking pace.

[seapug]

yeah a lot of the people riding today were really weird and pesimistic, my dad heard a bunch of people goin on and on about how herky jerky the ride was and some lady was complaning to me about how slow it was and how bikes would get stuck in the tracks. yeah it is slow but the point is to be rapid transit but so that people in the neighborhood can get around, and i don't know how it was at all herky jerky, but thats a seattleite for ya

[Tcmetro]

Why can't there be a connection between the Waterfront Streetcar and the SLUT via Pike Street?

[CityView Jim]

Because the Waterfront Street car doesn't connect to Pike. There's this big market thing in the way.

[citruspastels]

I wonder why nobody ever talks about bringing rail to Queen Anne. I think a subway stop up at the top would be awesome. Even a streetcar up Queen Anne Ave would be amazing. It kind of boggles my mind that people aways talk about bringing it to Interbay/Lower Queen Anne when the top of the hill is the difficult part to get to.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Big tax increase!

I don't really see a need for any mass transit line to go up into the heart of Queen Anne hill. For example, when most people talk about a LRT to Ballard, they commonly prefer a route along 15th Avenue, which will connect (some of) Queen Anne hill AND Magnolia. If you just had a line going straight through Queen Anne, you'd be bypassing Magnolia and potential ridership.

Just my thoughts...

[CityView Jim]

Queen Anne doesn't have the population density of other areas like Capitol Hill. There also is no traffic congestion to relieve.

[citruspastels]

Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36

when most people talk about a LRT to Ballard, they commonly prefer a route along 15th Avenue, which will connect (some of) Queen Anne hill AND Magnolia. If you just had a line going straight through Queen Anne, you'd be bypassing Magnolia and potential ridership.

Just my thoughts...

I think a station at Interbay would just end up awkwardly in between Magnolia and Queen Anne.

Access to Interbay is limited on either side: Queen Anne has a gigantic slope that few would walk up or down. Magnolia is cut off by tons of train tracks and sprawls quite far to the west. Unless Interbay is going to be considerably densified and developed as a destination, a stop there could end up somewhat pointless.

And I would argue traffic is increasingly a problem on Queen Anne hill, and Queen Anne Ave could be a prime area to densify. I think a light rail or street car stop there could really make it simple to get to and from there.

I don't think a streetcar extention up Queen Anne Ave is that out of the blue, it could be really well used and is a logical extention of a Lower Queen Anne/Seattle Center line.

I may be misreading the situation, but that's the impression I get.

[citruspastels]

Originally Posted by CityView Jim

Queen Anne doesn't have the population density of other areas like Capitol Hill..

It's a helluva lot more dense than most of the areas light rail is going!

http://www.sightline.org/maps/maps/Sprawl_Sea_02m

[CityView Jim]

I think it would be a little cheaper to do a surface route along 15th to get to Ballard and Crown Hill rather than going to enormous expense for one station on top of Queen Anne.

Big difference between Capitol Hill and Queen Anne's populations too. Capitol Hill has far more renters than Queen Anne (the top anyway) who are more likely to use mass transit. Queen Anne is little more than single family residences and a small strip of commercial.

It also is not quite the destination that Capital Hill is. In other words, people will come and go to Capitol Hill whereas Queen Anne will be people leaving from home and returning to home. Capital Hill has day activity and nighttime activities that draw people from all over. Not to mention colleges and universities within walking distance of the propsed station.

Where do you think is the BEST location on Upper Queen Anne for this station?

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

It's a helluva lot more dense than most of the areas light rail is going!

Better than traveling along I-5? Though it will take longer, the MLK route will serve more people and promote redevelopment and a complete redo of the S. Seattle area, which is currently plagued with many problems.

But back to streetcar, yes, you are right; a station at Interbay or Dravus would akwardly serve Magnolia and Queen Anne, so I guess it wouldn't really serve more people than if a line was placed along Queen Anne Avenue. Maybe if those Port of Seattle redevelopment plans were approved, that would surely support the need for a streetcar.

I'm not that familiar with Queen Anne. I always thought it was more of a Downtown suburban-style neighborhood. Could you tell me more about the area?

[Backstrom]

Originally Posted by taiwanesedrummer36

I'm not that familiar with Queen Anne. I always thought it was more of a Downtown suburban-style neighborhood. Could you tell me more about the area?

I've only gone through Queen Anne a few times, but the top of the hill is more single family housing. Nearer to the bottom are more apartments and store-lined streets. Correct me if I'm wrong.