The Seattle Streetcar Thread

[NW Mike]

Why do people get excited about such things? It will always take some time to get used to something new. Look how people felt about horse less carriages.

[citruspastels]

I've been working on this dream streetcar map off and on, what do you guys think? I think it's doable and would work quite well.



Google Maps-

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?clien...,0.114155&z=14

[Black Box]

I love your dream. It will be interesting to see where the next line or extension goes.

[SteveM]

I like the coverage of that plan, and you could imagine creative financing making it possible.

To dig in a little, why do you run the Madison line through Pine/Pike rather than all the way along Madison?

[kub86]

Nice map, but how about connecting the UW and Fremont lines via Wallingford? Or making the line go up to reach Greenlake?

[citruspastels]

Originally Posted by SteveM

I like the coverage of that plan, and you could imagine creative financing making it possible.

To dig in a little, why do you run the Madison line through Pine/Pike rather than all the way along Madison?

I struggled with the Madison line a bit. I would love to see it on either corridor. I chose Pine/Pike because of its connection to Westlake Center, which will become a major transportation hub in the future. From there, commuters can go anywhere. I can’t really think of any logical connection for a line that ran all the way down Madison.

Originally Posted by kub86

Nice map, but how about connecting the UW and Fremont lines via Wallingford? Or making the line go up to reach Greenlake?

I do think that we need a replacement ROW for 45th street when it comes to connecting UW-Wallingford-Fremont-Ballard, but I don’t think street car would cut it. There is nothing you could run ON 45th that would help that poor street. Also, the way I have it drawn, it would go down 50th, and that area just isn’t dense enough to justify laying down tracks.

As for Greenlake, a line would be nice because of the new density up there, but I doubt it would pen out. Besides, most of that density is within walking distance of the Roosevelt light rail station.

[SteveM]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

I struggled with the Madison line a bit. I would love to see it on either corridor. I chose Pine/Pike because of its connection to Westlake Center, which will become a major transportation hub in the future. From there, commuters can go anywhere. I can’t really think of any logical connection for a line that ran all the way down Madison.

Madison would connect to the ferry terminal, which could be nice. But it doesn't really connect well to the bus tunnel, which is (long-term) the key connection point. So yeah, I do see the Pine/Pike argument.

Still, it'd be nice to see transit service to First Hill improved. It's a very dense area, and the buses that run up the hill now are often packed and are very slow. It doesn't help that they're mostly high-floor trolley buses and the patrons (often going to or from the hospitals) seem to need the lift more than on other routes. Maybe just some low-floor trolley buses in dedicated lanes are the answer here.

[taiwanesedrummer36]

I kind of like the 1st Avenue streetcar line (serving a growing residential population and , but I wonder if it's necessary to have that many north-south transit lines (assuming a second transit tunnel is built along with a potential Alaskan Way streetcar line?

[jessejb]

So I took my brother and his lady friend on the streetcar to SLU Park yesterday and when we got to the stop at the park, I got off and about 6 people got shut in before they could step out (including my group and a guy in a wheelchair trying to use the wheelchair ramp) and the conductor wouldnt stop for them and I had to meet them up and Fred Hutch! I guess they confronted the conductor lady and she just aloofly said "ohhhhhhhh...sorryyyyyy..."
I guess at that stop, a few people almost got shut on, including a 4 year old.



That said, the park is nice!

[CityView Jim]

I see a new T-shirt in the making: "I rode the SLUT but just couldn't get off!"

[Ginkgo]

Originally Posted by jessejb

So I took my brother and his lady friend on the streetcar to SLU Park yesterday and when we got to the stop at the park, I got off and about 6 people got shut in before they could step out (including my group and a guy in a wheelchair trying to use the wheelchair ramp) and the conductor wouldnt stop for them and I had to meet them up and Fred Hutch! I guess they confronted the conductor lady and she just aloofly said "ohhhhhhhh...sorryyyyyy..."
I guess at that stop, a few people almost got shut on, including a 4 year old.

If it's the same operator I'm thinking of, please report such incidents to Metro. This one operator for some reason, does not stop at Lake Union Park, even when the buzzer is pushed. The more we report it, the more she will be told to pay attention. Can't fathom what the problem is....

[taiwanesedrummer36]

Originally Posted by CityView Jim

I see a new T-shirt in the making: "I rode the SLUT but just couldn't get off!"

It's been awhile since I heard an inappropriate joke...

[Seasun]

It's really important to report bad streetcar operations. Just be as specific as possible about details (when, who, which car etc)

I had good luck with:
ethan.melone (at symbol) seattle (dot) gov

[Aaron W]

City council considering streetcar network

By CHARLOTTE STARCK / KING 5 News

SEATTLE - No planes, trains, or automobiles - streetcars are the transportation proposal of choice in front of a Seattle City Council committee Tuesday.

Talks get under way at 9:30 a.m. on the feasibility of a citywide streetcar network.

A thousand people a day ride the South Lake Union Line. Now it seems it may be possible to build streetcar lines connecting neighborhoods with downtown and stadiums to move people around Seattle.

Ever since the streetcar rolled out between South Lake Union and Westlake Center, riders who love it have had one recurring complaint.

"I wish it went further," said one rider. "It's just a small loop now."

The Seattle City Council Transportation Committee will discuss the possibility of expanding four new cross-town streetcar routes. The streetcar expansion includes the following options:

1. South Lake Union to University District

2. First Avenue to Seattle Center

3. Westlake Center to Fremont/Ballard

4. Pioneer Square to Capitol Hill

While the routes were outlined Monday, the costs were not.

Construction would require both public and private money similar to the South Lake Union Line. Costs range anywhere from $29 to $50 million per mile, with each line ranging from $110 to $180 million. With a lagging economy and flat city tax revenue, even streetcar backers are saying "show me the money."

The South Lake Union Streetcar was funded by property owners, transportation agencies and public grants.

[PDXPaul]

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transp...reetcar06.html
Streetcar photo

The South Lake Union streetcar, shown here at the intersection of Ninth Avenue North and Westlake Avenue North, is projected to carry 330,000 riders each year. (Andy Rogers / P-I)

New streetcar routes have potential, but need cash

4 possibilities offered for city's consideration

Tuesday, May 6, 2008
Last updated 8:33 a.m. PT

By LARRY LANGE
P-I REPORTER

Four new crosstown streetcar routes appear promising enough to consider building, a Seattle agency said Monday.

Next steps: finding the money and deciding if they're worth it.

Map of proposed routes

The possible routes, winnowed by the Seattle Department of Transportation from a longer list, are:

* A 3.5-mile line to the University District from Westlake Center, extending the South Lake Union line northeast via Eastlake Avenue East, the University Bridge, Northeast Campus Parkway and up University Way to Northeast 50th Street. Estimated cost: $179 million in 2010 dollars, or $50 million-plus per mile.

The city estimates it could carry up to 3.1 million riders per year. Major costs include reinforcing the University Bridge and reinforcing or replacing a span on Fairview Avenue that crosses a corner of Lake Union.

The 1.3-mile South Lake Union line, opened last year, cost $40 million per mile of track and is projected to carry about 330,000 annually. Since Dec. 12, its first day open, 200,000 have ridden the line.

* A four-mile line through downtown on First Avenue, connecting the King Street Station area and extending north to Seattle Center. Estimated cost: $180 million, roughly $45 million per mile. Ridership is estimated at up to 4.9 million annually.

* A 4.4-mile line from Westlake Center to Fremont and Ballard, extending along the west side of Lake Union, across the Fremont Bridge and up Leary Way Northwest to 22nd Avenue Northwest and Northwest Market Street. Estimated cost: $130 million, roughly $29 million per mile, with up to 2.7 million riders per year.

* A 2.8-mile line from Pioneer Square to First Hill and Capitol Hill, extending up South Jackson Street from Fifth Avenue east to Boren Avenue and Broadway, as far north as East Aloha Street. Estimated cost: $110 million, or about $39 million per mile. This line was part of a transportation ballot measure rejected by voters last fall but could be included in another Sound Transit expansion proposal if one is put to a vote.

The routes were outlined in a department briefing Monday; operating costs were not included. City Council Transportation Committee members will discuss the list at 9:30 a.m. Tuesday.

Department officials said they rejected three other ideas: a Sodo line to West Seattle, because of complications crossing the Duwamish; a line over the Ballard Bridge because Metro already plans high-frequency bus service in the corridor as part of its Rapid Ride program; and a line from Seattle Center to Capitol Hill because the hillside is too steep for streetcars.

Building the lines will require both public and private money, similar to financing for the South Lake Union line, city officials said.

Which line is built may depend on where the city can find money first.

One source may be a local-improvement district that assesses taxes from benefiting landowners, similar to South Lake Union. Another source for the First Hill line, specifically, may be Sound Transit, if it can persuade voters to approve it. Other cash could come from Alaskan Way Viaduct construction, which has prevented the waterfront streetcar from resuming for several years. Some think a new First Avenue streetcar could replace the waterfront line.

The new list is "pretty exciting" because the lines could connect neighborhoods to downtown and the stadiums, said City Councilwoman and Transportation Committee Chairwoman Jan Drago, a streetcar backer. She wants a streetcar network-expansion plan by August, but said construction depends on finding the cash and property owners who are willing to contribute.

"We've said all along, 'Show me the money,' " she said.

No possible source of cash, including neighborhood businesses, has been tapped yet. And there are other questions.

Councilman Nick Licata, a skeptic of streetcar expansion, said First Hill hospitals might contribute to a line, but smaller businesses on South Jackson might not. He worries that streetcars on a Fremont-Ballard line would be mired in neighborhood traffic.

The lagging economy and flat city tax revenue projections make streetcar outlays questionable, said Councilman Richard McIver, a transportation committee member. He'd prefer spending on Mercer Street.

"I'm still not convinced that streetcars aren't just a fad," McIver said.

"That's an awful lot of revenue to stick into a fad."

[citruspastels]

hahaha, looks like somebody is reading ssc.... ;-)

Not so sure about that Ballard extension. Also, I think it would be a mistake to go down what looks like Westlake instead of Dexter; there is too much climbing to do for those on Queen Anne who would otherwise walk to Dexter, and there is less traffic on Dexter.

A quick cost effectiveness calculation shows us which routes are the best deal-

Tie for 1 - First Hill/Broadway and King Street/Belltown/Seattle Center
2 - Fremont/Ballard
3 - Eastlake/University

From my previous post, obviously I would like to see the upper Queen Anne and Capitol Hill/Madison Street extentions but this is a fantastic start!! In today's day and age, there HAS to be someway to get those things up hills. So happy there is a zoo connection in Fremont :-)

[Ginkgo]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

Also, I think it would be a mistake to go down what looks like Westlake instead of Dexter; there is too much climbing to do for those on Queen Anne who would otherwise walk to Dexter, and there is less traffic on Dexter.

I agree that it would be great to get up the hills, but in the meantime, there is a long, steep climb on Dexter from the Fremont Bridge, whereas Westlake is flat. There is quite a bit of space between the street and the businesses (currently taken up by parking) where tracks could be laid. Problematic at best, but living in Ballard as I do, I look forward to the day when I can commute via streetcar.

[jessejb]

Originally Posted by citruspastels

In today's day and age, there HAS to be someway to get those things up hills.

San Francisco. Thats all I have to say.

[Ginkgo]

Originally Posted by jessejb

San Francisco. Thats all I have to say.

True, but those are cable cars--totally different mechanism. Seattle HAD cable cars, such as the famous lines up Yesler and Queen Anne Avenue, but, alas, they are gone for all time.

[mhays]

A dual power system would work, though it would be expensive. You could do a cable pull on the hills (with a similar system for downhills), with traditional overhead power for the whole route (need to keep the lights on on hills too).