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Old August 18th, 2017, 10:49 PM   #2041
alserrod
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only possible in our homecity, of course

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Old August 19th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #2042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot8A View Post
"Even on dirt zone"

Zaragoza, Spain
In Germany, this is actually quite common. The legal background will be the same in both countries: A sole "no parking" sign only refers to the road itself, not to any "parkable" areas next to it.



(not my picture)
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Old August 19th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #2043
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The sign in the background is also quite unusual, as it marks the limits of a fictional city.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 01:56 PM   #2044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvinus View Post
In Germany, this is actually quite common. The legal background will be the same in both countries: A sole "no parking" sign only refers to the road itself, not to any "parkable" areas next to it.
But the "parkable" areas next to the roadway (like the road shoulder) usually also belong to the road.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 02:46 PM   #2045
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Vienna City Council had some signs left...

Knipsel by Mathijs Louter, on Flickr
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Old August 20th, 2017, 04:00 PM   #2046
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in fact, what in Spain wanna say is "no parking even in non paved area", but making text shorter, translation is weird
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Old August 20th, 2017, 05:31 PM   #2047
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But the signs normally mean that parking is prohibited on the whole road, including the non-paved area (road shoulder) too... Or is it different in Spain?
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Old August 20th, 2017, 05:56 PM   #2048
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It is the same one than in any country....

what it happens is... shoulder is non-paved and law makes differences between parking in shoulders in paved areas and non-paved areas. It comes from a long time ago when most roads were tiny and non-paved shoulders. Nowadays they have (and should it be non-paved it will be after a paved shoulder, this is, far away from carriageway)

But there are always some exemptions. In this case, a street with no pedestrian area and non paved shoulder. They say no parking allowed and they point "even in non paved area" (but they use a shorter text).

It is non common but have seen someones.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #2049
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In Poland you sometimes see such signs with a text "dotyczy także chodnika" - "valid also on sidewalk". It's a remainder from the time before the year 1999 (most sources mention the year 2002, but I checked it in the legal acts and it's not true), when the "no parking" and "no stopping" signs were normally valid only on the roadways.

Sometimes you also see a text "nie dotyczy chodnika" - "except sidewalk", which makes sense in the current legal situation.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 09:56 PM   #2050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I've driven in 20 European countries, never seen an all-way / 4-way stop...
I know this one from Geneva, but it must be some more in Switzerland.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.1715...uL996Pnn9w!2e0
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Old August 21st, 2017, 10:38 PM   #2051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niskogradnja View Post
I know this one from Geneva, but it must be some more in Switzerland.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.1715...uL996Pnn9w!2e0
I have never seen either, though AFAIK it is in line with the Vienna Convention on road traffic
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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:06 PM   #2052
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I don't know how it looks like in the Swiss law. But in Poland the definition of the "stop" sign is that you must stop AND you must give way to the vehicles on the road across (or according to an additional sign under it - so called broken priority). So, 4 way stop is in conflict with that. Two drivers must give way to each other respectively. The signage is contradictory.

In such a place, such a sign can be used:



Or no sign at all, but the sign will make the drivers pay more attention. Especially if one of the roads looks "more important" than the other and normally they would tend to drive along it without giving way to anyone.

Such intersections are too rare in Poland and this is why the drivers often have problems on them.

There is one quite a big one in Łódź: https://goo.gl/maps/8J9ZMGi18Py

But unfortunately it will be upgraded very soon and this upgrade involves installing traffic lights.

Even the police gave an opinion that installing traffic lights there is unnecessary and it can even decrease the safety (even though they normally want to install traffic lights everywhere where it's just possible, even if the city roads authority doesn't want it), but the city roads authority decided they will install traffic lights there anyway.

By the way, this intersection includes also quite a dangerous solution of a tram stop. Better and even more dangerous examples:
https://goo.gl/maps/WoFA9n7Ff1F2 (such a narrow pavement! you barely fit between the tram and the carrriageway)
https://goo.gl/maps/sN9iDNQP4xR2

Fortunately, those stops are being upgraded to just normal tram stops with separated islands for passengers, like this one:
https://goo.gl/maps/QLFHFzBpWtJ2

Sometimes they narrow the streets down:
https://goo.gl/maps/HZMxCXKYK792 (compare it with the old version, switch the year to 2011 or 2013, the old stop will be behind)
Although the problem here is that after the change, the trams are often being stopped by the "Falschparker".

Or use Vienna stops:
https://goo.gl/maps/MkccpnUSHX32

Last edited by Kpc21; August 21st, 2017 at 11:18 PM.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:20 AM   #2053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
I don't know how it looks like in the Swiss law. But in Poland the definition of the "stop" sign is that you must stop AND you must give way to the vehicles on the road across (or according to an additional sign under it - so called broken priority). So, 4 way stop is in conflict with that. Two drivers must give way to each other respectively. The signage is contradictory.

In such a place, such a sign can be used:



Or no sign at all, but the sign will make the drivers pay more attention. Especially if one of the roads looks "more important" than the other and normally they would tend to drive along it without giving way to anyone.

Such intersections are too rare in Poland and this is why the drivers often have problems on them.

There is one quite a big one in Łódź: https://goo.gl/maps/8J9ZMGi18Py

But unfortunately it will be upgraded very soon and this upgrade involves installing traffic lights.

Even the police gave an opinion that installing traffic lights there is unnecessary and it can even decrease the safety (even though they normally want to install traffic lights everywhere where it's just possible, even if the city roads authority doesn't want it), but the city roads authority decided they will install traffic lights there anyway.

By the way, this intersection includes also quite a dangerous solution of a tram stop. Better and even more dangerous examples:
https://goo.gl/maps/WoFA9n7Ff1F2 (such a narrow pavement! you barely fit between the tram and the carrriageway)
https://goo.gl/maps/sN9iDNQP4xR2

Fortunately, those stops are being upgraded to just normal tram stops with separated islands for passengers, like this one:
https://goo.gl/maps/QLFHFzBpWtJ2

Sometimes they narrow the streets down:
https://goo.gl/maps/HZMxCXKYK792 (compare it with the old version, switch the year to 2011 or 2013, the old stop will be behind)
Although the problem here is that after the change, the trams are often being stopped by the "Falschparker".

Or use Vienna stops:
https://goo.gl/maps/MkccpnUSHX32
I am not a lawyer, but here are the facts we know for the time being:

1. International law is superior to national law.
2. The Vienna convention on road traffic that sets out the "priority concept" in Europe was signed in 1968 while the Swiss confederation was one of the contracting parties.


And last but not least, here is the translation of a short extract concerning priority issue from Slovak law (sorry for repeating, but I am not a lawyer):

Quote:
Passing through intersection

(1) A driver approaching an intersection from a minor road marked by a traffic sign "yield" or "stop! yield" respectively is obligated to give way to vehicles and other road users approaching the intersection from the main road except pedestrians that are not formed in an organized unit.

(2) If the priority does not imply according to the paragraph no. 1 a driver approaching an intersection is obligated to give a priority to a vehicle approaching the intersection from the right.
Sometimes the main road does not run straight across an intersection, but is broken (as you correctly mentioned). All drivers on minor roads are supposed to act like these roads are equal i. e. priority to the right.

There are some old intersections (to be rebuild to a roundabout) in Slovakia with even three minor roads.

I do not think the all-way-stop would be contradictory to national or international law. Perhaps is not respected or is perceived as uselessly double-checking. Every wise driver (yep, according to my experiences there is a resounding minority of non-wise drivers) slows down while approaching an intersection without priority signs :-)
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:50 AM   #2054
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In the Polish law, it is so:

Quote:
§ 21. 1. The sign B-20 "stop" means that:
1) it is forbidden to enter the intersection without stopping before the road with priority,
2) it is obligatory to give way to the drivers moving on this road.

2. The stopping should take place in the place designated for this purpose and if there is no such place, in a place where the driver can make sure that it will not disturb the traffic on the road with priority.

3. A B-20 sign placed within an intersection applies only to the nearest carriageway, before which it is placed.

4. The regulations of the points 1 - 3 apply also to a B-20 sign placed before tracks of rail vehicles or in other places of crossing the directions of traffic.

5. The plate T-6c or T-6d placed under a B-20 sign indicates the actual course of the road with priority through the intersection.
And about the "yield" sign:
Quote:
§ 5. [...]
5. The sign A-7 "give way" warns about an intersection with a road with priority. An A-7 sign placed within an intersection applies only to the nearest carriageway, before which it is placed.

6. The regulation of the point 5 applies also to an A-7 sign placed before tracks of rail vehicles or in other places of crossing the directions of traffic.

7. The plate T-6c or T-6d placed under an A-7 sign indicates the actual course of the road with priority through the intersection.
This is from an executive act (issued by the ministry) about road signs. There is also the main parliamentary act being the proper highway code, but not regulating the road signs. It's what it says about intersections:

Quote:
Art. 25. 1. A driver, approaching to an intersection, is obliged to take special care and give way to the vehicle approaching from the right and if he turns left, also to the one from the opposite going forward or turning right.

2. The regulation of the point 1 does not apply to a rail vehicle [rail vehicle usually means a tram here, but also a train on a level crossing], which always has priority with respect to the other vehicles, regardless of from which side it approaches.

3. The regulations of the points 1 and 2 apply also in case of crossing the directions of traffic out of intersection.

4. For the driver, it is forbidden to:
1) enter the intersection if on the intersection or behind it, there is no place to continue the driving,
2) divide a column of pedestrians.
So in Poland, there MUST be a road (or a tramway or a railway) with priority for the "stop" or "yield" sign to be applied.

But the regulations in other countries can be different.

Last edited by Kpc21; August 22nd, 2017 at 01:02 AM.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 10:17 AM   #2055
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I hereby can say that have seen a cross sign recently only once in a corner in my region, where three roads joined. They had barely traffic, the typical you would make a roundabout or so, but nothing... just a cross one.
They have avoided that signal because people was confused at first... and prefer to make everyone to stop in a cross, and not seeing if they can or cannot cross.

Anyway, I remember when passing driving licence what my teacher said:

- yield means let other cars driving without reducing speed. If they are at 80, you cannot entry and make them reducing at 60 to let you entry... you may yield.

- stop means STOP. Wait for three seconds (it was his recommendation) and drive starting with first gear. Compulsory even if no other cars ahead.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 01:26 PM   #2056
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http://brescia.corriere.it/notizie/c...1a68e58f.shtml

The sign says: "Town with Western culture and strong Christian tradition. Anyone who isn't willing to respect local culture and traditions should go away."

The sign was installed by the local council, that is right-wing and anti-immigration.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 23rd, 2017, 07:42 PM   #2057
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I am not a fan of right-wing and anti-immigration organizations, but this is common sense. If you go and live/work/travel in a different place, you have to respect the local culture and traditions. If you don't like it, go back from where you come from.

Speaking of the 4-way STOP sign discussion from above, I drove in 24 different European countries and never encountered one. However, I drove also in the USA in several states and I have encountered some. They actually work a lot better than I would be expecting. This might be also because in the areas where I have encountered them everyone was driving quite slowly, nobody was rushing or so... European, end especially Eastern European traffic is slightly different and I am not sure how it would work here.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 08:27 PM   #2058
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Quote:
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I am not a fan of right-wing and anti-immigration organizations, but this is common sense. If you go and live/work/travel in a different place, you have to respect the local culture and traditions. If you don't like it, go back from where you come from.
I agree, but what's the point to say that an Italian town has a strong "Western culture" and "Christian traditions"? Is there a municipality in Italy where Western and Christian culture is not dominant? I don't think so.

Is anyone who move there supposed to convert to Christianity, celebrate Christmas and Easter, eat local pork meat and drink local wine? Certainly not.
Is anyone who move there supposed to respect local laws and regulations and basic principles such as freedom of speech, not discrimination or gender equality? Certainly yes.

Culture and tradition are questionable words there, as you can belong to a not-mainstream culture for the place where you live, and yet be an acceptable member of the society, as long as you follow local laws and common sense principles and you don't become a problem for other people.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old August 23rd, 2017, 10:46 PM   #2059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
- stop means STOP. Wait for three seconds (it was his recommendation) and drive starting with first gear. Compulsory even if no other cars ahead.
Yes. I have even failed a driving license test on that.

We have such a place in Łódź: https://goo.gl/maps/h8kUMQmBvuE2

As you can see, the visibility on the cars to which you have to give way is practically ideal. A one-directional street with the cars approaching towards you. It cannot be better.

However, as you can see if you move a little bit backwards, there is a STOP sign there. Even if I hadn't noticed it, I should have remembered from the driving course that there is STOP here. By the way, even on the Google photo you can see an examination car there (the red Yaris just doing the left turn).

I don't know the reason of this STOP. Maybe there is one, maybe they installed it there just in order to have a good place to fail the people taking the driving exam (or, more politically correct, to verify their ability to read and understand the road signs), as it's quite close to the examination center. No idea. The thing is, I don't know why I ignored this sign. I remember that I just saw that there is ideal visibility, there is no cars, so I turn left. Without thinking about the STOP sign. The examiner used the brake, said it's the end of the exam, and just instructed me what to do with the clutch and throttle while he operated the steering wheel and the brake (he has only the brake pedal at the passenger seat) pulling up to a safe place, where we exchanged the seats.

Of course, I finally past the test, but not that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
- yield means let other cars driving without reducing speed. If they are at 80, you cannot entry and make them reducing at 60 to let you entry... you may yield.
Yes. The Polish law simply has a definition of "giving way", which is explained as "restraining from motion if it would force the other driver to change his speed or direction". So, actually, if the other car is not in motion, you never have to give way to him. It can be sometimes useful, e.g. if at a "cross" or 4-way stop intersection four cars meet at the same time, or if another driver, by politeness, gives way to you even though the sign shows (or the regulations say) you should give way to him.
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Old August 25th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #2060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post

- stop means STOP. Wait for three seconds (it was his recommendation) and drive starting with first gear. Compulsory even if no other cars ahead.
In Canada all-way STOP signs are very common in suburban areas, perhaps even the dominant form of intersection control (priority concept doesn't exist, or rather is implied)

It is rare for drivers to come to a complete stop if it is not required to let cross-traffic pass. However, it is also common for police to be waiting nearby and passing out tickets like candy
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