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Old May 31st, 2016, 02:15 AM   #1821
Kanadzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
In Europe:

I think the Vienna Convention style is confusing
It makes sense vs. the no parking sign, but it is unnecessarily complex. It's something that has to be taught instead of something intuitive.

Of course being Canadian I think the Canadian one is best

Stopping not allowed, so just use a cross and a stop sign

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Old May 31st, 2016, 07:16 PM   #1822
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The road sign for the village of Kodžadžik (in Turkish: Kocacik) in Macedonia, deliberately made to resemble the Turkish flag (star and crescent).

The village is known for the fact that the house of Mustafa Kemal Atatrk's parents is located there.

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Old May 31st, 2016, 08:01 PM   #1823
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Not really sure if this sign fits here but...



It says "Safety distance controlled by helicopter"
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Old May 31st, 2016, 08:25 PM   #1824
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How on earth does this work?
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Old May 31st, 2016, 08:43 PM   #1825
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Laser telemeters. I guess that if they can check a vehicle's speed, they can also check the distance between two vehicles

http://www.diariomotor.com/2015/02/2...t-helicoptero/
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Old June 1st, 2016, 06:01 AM   #1826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvejoodik View Post
How on earth does this work?
Simple

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Old June 1st, 2016, 06:25 PM   #1827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
Laser telemeters. I guess that if they can check a vehicle's speed, they can also check the distance between two vehicles

http://www.diariomotor.com/2015/02/2...t-helicoptero/
Yeah, that'll work, but what happens next if the distance is too small? Broadcasting "emergency news" to his car radio about dangerous distance?
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Old June 1st, 2016, 07:39 PM   #1828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvejoodik View Post
Yeah, that'll work, but what happens next if the distance is too small? Broadcasting "emergency news" to his car radio about dangerous distance?
I am sure they send you the bill to home :P
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Old June 1st, 2016, 07:56 PM   #1829
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Not only distance. In Spain police helicopters can record any driver (and sometimes have been broadcasted on TV news.... and are more closed to a reality show indeed!!!!) and fine anyone because dangerous situations.... and I guess they can use a radar from a helicopter, but they focus on dangerous situations. Overpassing with a continious line for instance..... and fined from a helicopter!!
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Old June 1st, 2016, 08:53 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I think the Vienna Convention style is confusing
It makes sense vs. the no parking sign, but it is unnecessarily complex. It's something that has to be taught instead of something intuitive.
Come on, that symbol is neither confusing nor complex. It is not self explanatory I give you that. But it's not too hard to learn it either.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 09:26 PM   #1831
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I've known that sign since I was a little kid.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 09:53 PM   #1832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvejoodik View Post
Yeah, that'll work, but what happens next if the distance is too small? Broadcasting "emergency news" to his car radio about dangerous distance?
No. A single call to the police waiting 5-10 kms apart.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 03:01 AM   #1833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
It's something that has to be taught instead of something intuitive.
How to read also has to be taught, and if you are not a native English speaker, you have to learn English to understand the US-style signs.

Those signs are so ubiquitous in Europe, that even a child knows what it means.

The more common signs usually depict their meaning exactly. Although...



Seeing such a sign you have to beware not only of cows, but of any farm animals. This is a thing you have to learn. Analogically with:



It doesn't have to be a deer who crosses the road, and a collision with any big forest animal at a high speed can be deadly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
I've seen it as a fixed mount. So it is there even in the middle of the Summer .
Well... in Poland it's common to see this sign before bridges (as they can get frosty sooner than the rest of the road due to the void under them):



But, at least on the main roads, for the summer they are usually rotated so that they are not visible.

In Poland a thing which is clear for the nationals, but may be not so clear for the foreigners, is the signal allowing the right-turn on red. Turning right with the red light is normally forbidden in Poland - although most of the traffic lights have this signal anyway, and actually it's allowed in most of the cases - by means of this signal.

It looks like that:



When the right-turn on red is allowed, the green arrow light turns on.

But it might be misleading. Green means basicaly "you can go" - but in this case you are not just allowed to go, you have to give way to the cars (and to the pederstrians and the cyclists, if they have green as well) on the street across. What is more - you are obliged to stop even if there is no traffic on the street across, as if there were a "stop" sign. Interestingly, in practice the only drivers who follow this rule are the driving learners. I have never seen a car which wouldn't be a drive-learner or driving-license-examination car and it would follow this rule.

It can be mistaken with the signal allowing to turn right, guaranteeing it will be collision-free:



Which in some cases may look so (the right lights only for the right-turn, the left lights for all the other cases):



The only differences are that the traffic light device for the conditional right-turn (when you have to stop and give way) has only one cell (only for the green light) and that the shape of the arrow is different. For Polish drivers it's obvious, for foreigners it may not be, and definitely it's wrong that the color of the arrow for the conditional right-turn is green. In some European countries it's yellow (although green also occurs somewhere outside of Poland), which is much better.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 03:10 AM   #1834
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The green right turn arrow surprised me in Poland.

In typical North American region, right turn on red is allowed, you must stop first and yield to all other traffic, unless a sign is present saying it is forbidden (or the island of Montreal in Canada). Like you note in PL, nobody stops fully unless there is cross-traffic, they are in a driving exam, or a police car is visible.
However if a green arrow lights up, you have a protected collision-free (this is a polonism :P) movement and you proceed without stopping or yielding to anyone (including pedestrians)

So maybe a couple hours after I had left Warsaw airport the first time, I was at such an intersection, imagine my surprise seeing a Seicento or whatever golf cart heading my way
I never even noticed before that shape of the arrow defining something despite having been in front of thousand such Polish trees

The existence of it is a lamp doesn't even make much sense as the stop condition should mean drivers could perform this manoeuvre safely at any time in the light cycle, so switching is useless, and could use instead the German-style painted sign (which I am familiar with)

I would humbly suggest Poland adopt North American practice which is tremendously better (right turn on red is wonderful) and North America adopt Polish speed limits...
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Last edited by Kanadzie; June 4th, 2016 at 03:18 AM.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 03:54 AM   #1835
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Actually we used to have painted arrows in Poland in the past. Until something like the end of the 90's.

I was so young in that time that I don't remember the colors. Weirdly, I cannot find any photos as well. But, from what I remember, they looked like this:



Someone said that it's against the European regulations and if we want to join the EU, we have to change that.

Which doesn't make any sense if you take into account that Germans have painted arrows even though they are one of the countries which grounded the EU... Probably a factory of traffic lights "had to" earn some money, someone either knew someone very well or paid someone some money, and this was the result. All the "conditional arrows" (as we call them in Poland) in the form of metal boards disappeard and were replaced by lights.

I have heard that those painted arrows in Germany (by the way, also green on black background - they look like the Polish light arrows, with the only difference that they are painted) were actually an East German idea, adopted by the West Germany after the reunification. But if the West Germany could adopt them (and the former East Germany could leave them unchanged), then, as it seems, we in Poland could also leave them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
you have a protected collision-free (this is a polonism :P) movement and you proceed without stopping or yielding to anyone (including pedestrians)
How do you call this correctly in English, when the car is guaranteed to have free way (with all the traffic across having red lights) in the direction as the green arrow light shows?
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Old June 4th, 2016, 04:33 AM   #1836
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I think the typical American English would be "protected" like "protected left turn phase", but I would think that to be something a traffic engineer would use, while normal person probably would just say "green arrow"

e.g. like here: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...ion3.2.8.shtml

It used to be more common in Canada, especially in Montreal, the "advanced green", where one direction only would have a flashing green light, which meant it had priority for all movements (straight, turning left, right, etc)
They are not so common anymore, usually being replaced with an extra green left turn arrow, that illuminates with the green circle during a few seconds (essentially, it's the same meaning, just an extra light bulb).

In Quebec they would always have signs "Attendez le feu vert" (wait for green light) at the intersection which always made me laugh (but it made sense - if you expected to start driving when the other direction went red, you would hit the left turn traffic from the other side)
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Old June 4th, 2016, 10:24 AM   #1837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
How to read also has to be taught, and if you are not a native English speaker, you have to learn English to understand the US-style signs.

Those signs are so ubiquitous in Europe, that even a child knows what it means.

The more common signs usually depict their meaning exactly. Although...



Seeing such a sign you have to beware not only of cows, but of any farm animals. This is a thing you have to learn. Analogically with:



It doesn't have to be a deer who crosses the road, and a collision with any big forest animal at a high speed can be deadly...


Well... in Poland it's common to see this sign before bridges (as they can get frosty sooner than the rest of the road due to the void under them):
What is its sense on the motorway if there are fences that protect intruders from coming onto a motorway?
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Old June 4th, 2016, 10:40 AM   #1838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Actually we used to have painted arrows in Poland in the past. Until something like the end of the 90's.

I was so young in that time that I don't remember the colors. Weirdly, I cannot find any photos as well. But, from what I remember, they looked like this:



Someone said that it's against the European regulations and if we want to join the EU, we have to change that.

Which doesn't make any sense if you take into account that Germans have painted arrows even though they are one of the countries which grounded the EU... Probably a factory of traffic lights "had to" earn some money, someone either knew someone very well or paid someone some money, and this was the result. All the "conditional arrows" (as we call them in Poland) in the form of metal boards disappeard and were replaced by lights.

I have heard that those painted arrows in Germany (by the way, also green on black background - they look like the Polish light arrows, with the only difference that they are painted) were actually an East German idea, adopted by the West Germany after the reunification. But if the West Germany could adopt them (and the former East Germany could leave them unchanged), then, as it seems, we in Poland could also leave them.


How do you call this correctly in English, when the car is guaranteed to have free way (with all the traffic across having red lights) in the direction as the green arrow light shows?
I do not know the situation in Poland, but the arrow should be next to the red light.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #1839
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post

Someone said that it's against the European regulations and if we want to join the EU, we have to change that.
By default, this sort of statements are false. Even if EU wants to harmonize everything but the weather, traffic signs and traffic lights are out of scope. This is probably because of the Vienna Convention being the harmonization body.

The Vienna Convention text does not introduce such a sign. Therefore, it is up to the local legislation to declare the semantics and placement.
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Old June 4th, 2016, 04:59 PM   #1840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukraroad View Post
What is its sense on the motorway if there are fences that protect intruders from coming onto a motorway?
There is no sense. These signs aren't used on motorways. Although I have heard about a deadly accident on a motorway with a moose - it probably jumped over the fence.

And, if I am not mistaken, we still have some sections of motorways (built long time ago) without those fences.

There is Google Street View, let's check. A section of the A1 motorway built in the 70's: https://goo.gl/maps/K3PAgGc1djo

No fences. Most of Polish motorways are modern, as they were built within the last 10 years, but there are some small old sections. Or sometimes not so small - for example the A4 west from Wrocław, a big part of which was built in the 1930's by Germans - also no fences: https://goo.gl/maps/REQYsBt8VqS2

Another missing element here on this section of the A4 are the emergency lanes (do you call them shoulders in English?) - for this reason the speed is limited from the standard 140 km/h to 110 km/h: https://goo.gl/maps/ug6byiZNRqq - the warning signs say "No emergency lane".

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I do not know the situation in Poland, but the arrow should be next to the red light.
It is so in Germany. From what I remember (although I remember it very weakly and I couldn't find any photos), in Poland it was under the light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
By default, this sort of statements are false. Even if EU wants to harmonize everything but the weather, traffic signs and traffic lights are out of scope. This is probably because of the Vienna Convention being the harmonization body.

The Vienna Convention text does not introduce such a sign. Therefore, it is up to the local legislation to declare the semantics and placement.
Poland accepted the Vienna convention, and introduced it to the national law, in 1988, so a very long time before the metal board arrows had to be replaced with light arrows.

It's how this light looks in practice:



A situation when this arrow as a light, and not as a fixed sign, makes sense is when the traffic from the opposite direction has a proper green arrow light for turning left (for a protected left-turn) - I mean this type:



By the way, what the cars in the photo are doing is forbidden in such a case, such a light allows only left-turn, not U-turn. This light allows also U-turn:



When someone from the opposite has this light for the protected left-turn (or someone from our right has the latter one, for the protected left-turn and U-turn, or for the U-turn only), we cannot be allowed to turn right, even conditionally. When the arrow allowing the conditional right-turn is a light, then it can just turn off for the time when those from the opposite have green for the left-turn. Fixed arrow couldn't be used at all.

Of course, it doesn't explain why this "conditional arrow" (as we call it in Poland) has always to be a light, even if there is no "collision-free arrows" (I will stay with this term, as it refers to a situation specific for Poland) at the interstection at all. And why is it green, and not yellow blinking...

The other country which has those misleading green arrows is Serbia:



Those German fixed arrows can also be misleading, as they are also green on black background, but they aren't, at least, lights...

In some European countries, I am not sure if it was Greece or Spain, I have seen conditional arrows which were yellow blinking - it makes much more sense.
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