Cardiff's "Alternate" Civic Society

[Cambo_Dai]

Okay.. I'm not sure if this will lead to anything but a couple of supportive messages on another thread make it seem worthwhile to give it a go.

Anyone keeping track of Bay Pointe would have noticed that both the Cardiff and Penarth "civic societies" have it in their minds to scupper the project due to it "being out of character", "dominating" and "doing nothing to benefit the city". Similarly if you read the Echo the other day you'd see Jonathan Morgan thinking that 5000 jobs will do "nothing to help [his] constituency", without even examining the proposals for the J31 Business Park.

Now there are valid reasons for objecting to both these schemes, in the main relating to congestion and potential car-centricity. However, the objections of these civic societies and so-called civic leaders often boil down to a rejection of change, modernity and boldness in design. They hark back to the days of a small low-rise city with equally low ambition. However, today's Cardiff is a growing, confident city, and one that must raise the stakes and continuously develop and redevelop if it is to remain competitive and offer future generations an attractive place to live, work and play.

Hence, Bay Pointe might be "out of keeping" with the rest of the bay, but that can be seen as a good thing: the city supporting higher density and growing upwards rather than outwards. Or, a modernist design on Penarth Seafront might be seen as bold and contrasting, showing the seaside town sparking back to life. We believe the development of Cardiff as a larger, more cosmopolitan city is something to celebrate and encourage.. and that this will involve some trade offs.

Anyway, what I've proposed and some people seem at least moderately keen on is getting our act together, making a wiki-style website for an "Alternate" Civic Society that puts forward a more positive spin on new development, at least in theory.. one that looks to the future rather than harking to the past. It won't be pro specific-development, but will be pro-development, in general.

- So we might try to come up with a "view" on St Mary's Street (with the potential for some commentary for divergent views).
- Or we might want to put forward our hopes/wishes for developments at Havannah Quay and at Tyndall Street.
- Or criticise recent developments we think have gone badly (e.g. Celestia, Lloyd George)
- Compliment elements of Local Authority Policy, or criticise others.
- We might want a "critique" of the views of the current Civic Society on certain things e.g. Bay Pointe, or on their approach to architecture/development in general.

It'll need a name.. Progressive City/Cardiff? Cardiff Future? Forward Cardiff (i.e. steal it from the ex Wrexham AM).

We'll also need someone who can set up the wiki/website. This is really important and I have no clue.. I'm sure someone on here is a website designer!

And we'll need to work out some way of "agreeing" on the society's position on certain things for our "main" articles/statements with the wiki's allowing people to put counter-views.

Anyway, what do people think? Is it a worthwhile venture? It shouldnt take too long.. and maybe rather than just talking about things on here like anoraks we can get heard and put alternate viewpoints across to the press and the city council than the likes of "Cardiff Civic Society" who often seem to want to hold Cardiff back as a bit of a provincial backwater.

[JamesWales]

I'd lend my support to any such venture, but I have next to zero website skills.

I think it's important to put this view out there. I'd recommend writing to CBI Wales to see if there is interest there. I also think a name choice is important. Progressive is a fine word, but lends to accusations of claiming false ownership of the word 'progress'. I like 'Future Cardiff' or 'Forward Cardiff' or maybe whatever that is in Cymraeg!?

Anyone in North Cardiff constituency should be writing to their MP too.

[wizard]

Count me in also at this stage please.

I'll have to don my thinking cap re: a name. Perhaps if I join the seething hoards on Black Friday this afternoon then inspiration will strike!

[DaiB]

Likewise you can count on my support. I'm afraid I'm also a complete dunce when it comes to websites...

[DaiB]

Perhaps Paul over on Cardiffwalesmap.com could lend some IT knowhow? That website itself almost serves as a pro-development mouthpiece so I'm sure he'd be happy to help.

[Karldiff]

Originally Posted by DaiB

Perhaps Paul over on Cardiffwalesmap.com could lend some IT knowhow? That website itself almost serves as a pro-development mouthpiece so I'm sure he'd be happy to help.

Good thinking. I would be happy to contribute although sadly my website skills are non-existent. Presenting a view that is formed on considerations other than preservation and nimbyism can only be a good thing.

[Gannet!]

I would lend my support, while I too, have no website knowledge. It is quite easy to find the software.

Like a wiki, the free software- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki is the same as which wikipedia uses. I would just need to be loaded on to some webspace.

[SixU]

I'm a bit of a buff when it comes to website design, flash, 3dmodelling etc.. My time is very little (particularly now at Christmas)

However, I really recommend the following:

Simplemachinesforums.org (cutting edge forum software, highly customisable and FREE)
Tinyportal.net (integrates the forums, with an automatic and easy to edit homepage with modules and article pages, FREE).
Mediawiki, for wikipedia stuff although, with tinyportal, it kinda becomes moot.

If you guys need any background graphics (such as Cardiff building renders like my 3.D B.T Stadium House. See sig) or others, give me a shout.

[Cambo_Dai]

6underground: I've registered on the forum website... and argh.. discoverd you gave the wrong link! BOO! Its just simplemachines.org.. if you add "forum" on the end it takes you to some community forum for the programme.. booo!

Right maybe now I'll get somewhere. The tinyportal.net looked like a set of forums and downloadable "themes" too.. is there a software kit to download or something?

[Cambo_Dai]

lol arggh.. also! Didn't know needed to set up a host server first.. i assumed that simplemachines would host it! agh! Does anyone have some webspace? And webspace that supports php?


Argh okay.. I'm stuck. My webspace doesnt allow sql files.. which are required to install this.. HELP! lol 6underground.. I don't think you understand just how "novice" we are. My last attempt at designing a webpage used frontpage and geocities :-S

[Gannet!]

I hate simple machines. myBB- mybboard.net, or even YaBB, are much better, and to me better to look at. But lets not make this thread a forum software flame war.

A pssoble alternative to tinyportal, is Joomla. Its best to look at a wide selection to see which coud be the best for youre site.

Edit- Sites run on free hosts are never much cop, or well respected, then ofcourse youd need a url- i.e skyscrapercity.com in a url.

[Joeman]

Count me in aswell, but i dont have to much time on my hands at the moment, but ill help where i can.

[KyleP]

Count me in as well.

I've only registered today on this forum but have been reading all your contributions for ages. I also post on Paul's forum now and then....is it worth you posting something up on there as well to gather some more interest ?

I work in I.T., but as an analyst rather than a developer so I know nothing about creating one I'm afraid. I know plenty of web developers but I think it might be best to get someone like Paul involved that feels as strongly as the rest of us about Cardiff developments...or use one of the many free forums.

I have to say that I'm fed up with the attitudes of this so called 'Civic Society'. To me they just want Cardiff to stay stuck in the past and are just against anything that might help drag the city into the big league...which is what we all want. I don't know any of you personally but it seems to me that we all have the best interests of the future of the city at heart and that is all that counts regardless of minor differences in opinion we may have.

[cardiff]

Count me in as well, i would hate to see developments as ambitious as bay pointe scuppered because the couincil etc got the feeling there wasnt enough support from the comunity and got only critasism.

[jantra]

Right

Dai well done I wholeheartedly support this and will be prepared if things get advanced to draft up M&A's etc and offer accountancy/taxation gratis...

also, I have two web developers working with me who'll set up a wiki foc. drop me an email at damianevans@esquare.co.uk for some general ideas about what people want. ie main purpose, current issues etc etc i'll put the main ones up on here, we can then have a democratic vote...in the meantime I'll get the two developers to start the basis of a wiki...

i'll get some of my graphic designers to knock up a logo as well...may as well make this thing professional....

great idea Dai...you have my full support and offer of services....

[martinjc]

I'd also like to put my support behind this. I have some technical web skills - although it looks like jantra has solved that issue! However, I will help with whatever I can.

[Cambo_Dai]

Yay!

Okay, right, before we get too carried away, we need a name for this "venture". We also need some kind of "mission statement" which can form the basis of the organisation and be an anchor for the different views and commentary produced under its auspices.

Names:
Forward Cardiff
Capital Future
Cardiff Unbound
any others? I think a name has to capture the key motivation: to offer a positive narrative and analysis of development in Cardiff, focussing on a confident future for a growing city.

Mission Statement: I think its important to have a core "corporate" view that we can all subscribe to, even if we have differences over specifics.

"[NAME] believes that Cardiff is an increasingly confident and worthy capital of Wales, but that much of the improved fortunes of the city reflects a general UK trend for regeneration and the renewal of urban areas. In order to maintain momentum, to improve our city relative to others, and to meet our high expectations we require an ambition for growth, development and continued renewal that current Cardiff-based organisations and the city council currently seems to lack.

[NAME] is not blindly pro specific-development, and neither it nor its individual members and commentators will hesitate from criticising inappropriate or poorly implemented proposals or finished schemes. However, it does believe that in order to maintain and improve its place in the UK and European hierarchy, our city needs to continuously develop with, in particular, a focus on high density development in the city centre and bay. Increasing high-rise development will change the city, but we believe in a good way: it shows a city in demand, and a city on the up.

The city might also require growing "outwards" as well as "upwards" and [NAME] hopes to add its voice in support of well thought-out schemes to extend the city, backed up by clear and lucid argument. Opponents of growth and change often go unchallenged and this needs to be rectified: only if their arguments are better should they win through.

[NAME] believes the city is something to shout about and will provide comment and critique of how the council and other public and private sector organisations go about their role of marketing and representing the city. The council plays an important role in facilitating development and its policies and decisions must be held to account by reasoned analysis. It must know theres more to public opinion than Echo Editorial.

Ultimately [NAME] is about putting forward a new and fresh narrative of Cardiff's potential; it really is unbound."

Hah.. last bit shows which name I like. But sounds a bit like our eastern neighbour, no? :-S

I'll email you tomorrow, Mr Evans. In the meantime, econometrics

[wizard]

Possible other options (yes I've just picked up a few words from an online thesaurus!)

FUTURE CARDIFF
ADVANCING CARDIFF
CARDIFF AHEAD
ONWARD CARDIFF
REMIT: CARDIFF
CARDIFF TOMORROW
ABSOLUTE CARDIFF
CARDIFF 2020 (or some other arbitrary date!)
CARDIFF UNLIMITED
DESTINATION: CARDIFF
COMPLETE CARDIFF
EVOLVING CARDIFF
PROGRESSIVE CARDIFF
VISION CARDIFF

[DaiB]

Originally Posted by Cambo_Dai

Yay!

Okay, right, before we get too carried away, we need a name for this "venture". We also need some kind of "mission statement" which can form the basis of the organisation and be an anchor for the different views and commentary produced under its auspices.

Names:
Forward Cardiff
Capital Future
Cardiff Unbound
any others? I think a name has to capture the key motivation: to offer a positive narrative and analysis of development in Cardiff, focussing on a confident future for a growing city.

Mission Statement: I think its important to have a core "corporate" view that we can all subscribe to, even if we have differences over specifics.

"[NAME] believes that Cardiff is an increasingly confident and worthy capital of Wales, but that much of the improved fortunes of the city reflects a general UK trend for regeneration and the renewal of urban areas. In order to maintain momentum, to improve our city relative to others, and to meet our high expectations we require an ambition for growth, development and continued renewal that current Cardiff-based organisations and the city council currently seems to lack.

[NAME] is not blindly pro specific-development, and neither it nor its individual members and commentators will hesitate from criticising inappropriate or poorly implemented proposals or finished schemes. However, it does believe that in order to maintain and improve its place in the UK and European hierarchy, our city needs to continuously develop with, in particular, a focus on high density development in the city centre and bay. Increasing high-rise development will change the city, but we believe in a good way: it shows a city in demand, and a city on the up.

The city might also require growing "outwards" as well as "upwards" and [NAME] hopes to add its voice in support of well thought-out schemes to extend the city, backed up by clear and lucid argument. Opponents of growth and change often go unchallenged and this needs to be rectified: only if their arguments are better should they win through.

[NAME] believes the city is something to shout about and will provide comment and critique of how the council and other public and private sector organisations go about their role of marketing and representing the city. The council plays an important role in facilitating development and its policies and decisions must be held to account by reasoned analysis. It must know theres more to public opinion than Echo Editorial.

Ultimately [NAME] is about putting forward a new and fresh narrative of Cardiff's potential; it really is unbound."

Hah.. last bit shows which name I like. But sounds a bit like our eastern neighbour, no? :-S

I'll email you tomorrow, Mr Evans. In the meantime, econometrics

This is an excellent start. My personal view is that some mention of environmental sustainability and transport considerations would not go amiss, and also I think the sentiments highlighted in bold above should be avoided; I think it's important that a group such as this is apolitical. Criticising the current authority in such a general way suggests a political motivation. Also, it's important to remember that many of the schemes we would like to see come to fruition are fully supported by the council and in many cases (such as Bay Pointe) come about directly as a result of the council's hunger for regenereation. The council has received a lot of money for the sale of the land upon which Bay Pointe will be built, and in this specific example it's likely that we and the council would want exactly the same outcome in opposition to other groups! I also think the rest of the statement is somewhat skewed - in fact I'd say most Cardiff-based organisations are very pro-development. If you're talking about civic 'pressure-groups' then you're quite right, but this doesn't come accross in the wording.

Anyway, as I said; a good first draft and generally one that I agree with!

[KyleP]

It is an excellent start. I like the names below that have been suggested so far :

FUTURE CARDIFF
PROGRESSIVE CARDIFF
COMPLETE CARDIFF