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Old March 10th, 2015, 12:59 PM   #61
kunming tiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
That's certainly what the CCP would like one to believe.

The CCP could care less what people think , they care more about what they do or say Re Occupy HK .

Democracy works best when one party has a clear mandate works worst smaller parties hold power of veto. AKA The Greens .

The CCP may have provided the resources but it wouldn't have been possible without the Chinese workforce. Not just the work ethic but the sheer size of it.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 01:10 PM   #62
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I'd rather not enter into a political debate on another country's thread, but it is precisely when the population thinks away from party lines that situations like Occupy HK occur.
Anyway, nations like Switzerland are very effective democracies as they turn to referendums on hot-topic issues. Likewise there are a long list of failed states with single-party rule.

In India's case, democracy is ineffective due to an exceptionally strong culture of bureaucracy and powerful bodies that prevent the slimming down of governance.
And of course, we all wait with baited breath to see what Mr. Modi can do to change things in India.
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Old March 10th, 2015, 08:50 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
The CCP could care less what people think , they care more about what they do or say Re Occupy HK .

Democracy works best when one party has a clear mandate works worst smaller parties hold power of veto. AKA The Greens .

The CCP may have provided the resources but it wouldn't have been possible without the Chinese workforce. Not just the work ethic but the sheer size of it.
The growth of China was the enterprise and energy of the southern chinese and the hard work of the western chinese and inland workers. I knows its OT but I thinks its hilarious that people dismiss China's growth as just because its authoritarian so it grows. The industries didn't come out of thin air. The roads didn't come out of thin air. The enterprise is the reason why though cheap labour is available in many countries only the PRD could take off. Somebody had to set up those enterprises in the first place. Yes being a dictatorship helped-but it also harmed China in countless ways. Anyway thats a story in itself. The SEZs in China came up in a place like Guangdong known for enterprise and its huge diaspora abroad.

As far as India is the issue, we are already seeing express highways like the YE without much traffic. Are HSR trains going to run empty? Indian consumers are very price sensitive.
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Old March 11th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #64
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Was there anything in the recent budget for HSR? Any status updates on any lines? Any line close to construction yet?
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Old March 13th, 2015, 12:48 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Cosmicbliss View Post
As far as India is the issue, we are already seeing express highways like the YE without much traffic. Are HSR trains going to run empty? Indian consumers are very price sensitive.
India is quite a bit poorer than China and the latter is not yet wealthy either (per capita)…
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Old March 14th, 2015, 01:35 PM   #66
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Useful information you shared. Thank you.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 09:09 PM   #67
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India is quite a bit poorer than China and the latter is not yet wealthy either (per capita)…
A lot of places may have higher per capita than China true but also irrelevant in the context of HSR.

If there isn't the demand in the first place then it won;t be built.

per capita is simply a ballpark figure there are people above it and below it.

If enough people are above it there is your market.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:43 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
A lot of places may have higher per capita than China true but also irrelevant in the context of HSR.

If there isn't the demand in the first place then it won;t be built.

per capita is simply a ballpark figure there are people above it and below it.

If enough people are above it there is your market.
It's not so simple. There might be a demand and even a viable business model for operating the system, but if no one is able and/or willing to provide money for initial capital expenditure then HSR doesn't happen.

I can think of several countries besides India where that is the case.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 08:30 AM   #69
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The basic idea of HSR is quicker and more efficient transport in the interest of better business, trade or tourism. This particularly applies on bigger countries with large population, which India undoubtedly is. The HSR system built in China over the last 10 years left a huge hole in the budget, but, the business which developed as a result of it is bringing in the cash through taxation.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 10:06 AM   #70
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All they have to do is to target the long distance bus (direct via expressway) fare of the same route, like what China did with many intercity lines opened in 2007, this will be a sure way to attract enough traffic.
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Old April 8th, 2015, 08:14 PM   #71
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Initial study on Indian HS line underway
Wednesday, April 08, 2015



CHINA Railway Siyuan Survey and Design Group (CRSSD) is conducting a preliminary study of a planned 1754km high-speed line in India linking Delhi, Bhopal, Nagpur, Hyderabad and Chennai which it hopes to complete by August

The study is being done free-of-charge under a memorandum of understanding signed last year in New Delhi in the presence of India's prime minister Mr Narendra Modi and the Chinese president, Mr Xi Jinping

...
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Old April 9th, 2015, 02:12 PM   #72
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Whats the point of such a long 2000 km Del Chennai HS line ... even with 300KPH it will take the best part of the day.
Overnighters may make sense but sitting overnight on trains is a non starter ... Sleepers will make it overly expensive and flying will be more cost effective.


The longest they can aim for is DEL-BOM at 1400 km which is also a bigger market and with trains of 300KPH can be covered in half a day 5 hrs or so.

Overall travel time becomes much in line with airplanes and associated transfer times of 1hr + 2 hr + 1 hr between DEL-BOM.

One thing they need to absolutely make sure is track segregation with the rest of the network otherwise the whole thing will just be bogged down with political interests vying for stops in their home cities along the way.
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Old April 9th, 2015, 10:25 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vijesh108k View Post
rajdhani express chennai to delhi is current fastest train in India
what is the avg speed and highest speed??
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Old April 10th, 2015, 09:45 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyer121 View Post
Whats the point of such a long 2000 km Del Chennai HS line ... even with 300KPH it will take the best part of the day.
Overnighters may make sense but sitting overnight on trains is a non starter ... Sleepers will make it overly expensive and flying will be more cost effective.


The longest they can aim for is DEL-BOM at 1400 km which is also a bigger market and with trains of 300KPH can be covered in half a day 5 hrs or so.

Overall travel time becomes much in line with airplanes and associated transfer times of 1hr + 2 hr + 1 hr between DEL-BOM.

One thing they need to absolutely make sure is track segregation with the rest of the network otherwise the whole thing will just be bogged down with political interests vying for stops in their home cities along the way.
Compare the railway Beijing-Guangzhou.
Old line: 2298 km
On old line: 5 direct trains daily.
1 non-express. Travel time 29 hours 57 minutes (average 77 km/h). 23 intermediate stops (average 96 km between stops).
Ticket price in unassigned seat (or standing) 251 yuan
Ticket price in a 4 berth compartment 750 yuan in upper, 784 yuan in lower berth
4 express trains on slow railway. Travel time 21:01 to 21:44 (average 105 to 109 km/h). 3 to 7 intermediate stops. (average 287 to 575 km between stops)
Ticket prices the same as for non-expresses.
High speed railway: actual length 2104 km, to a new station in Guangzhou suburbs, about 20 km from old station.
1 express high speed train daily. Trip time 8:03 (average 261 km/h) with 4 intermediate stops (average 421 km between stops).
Ticket price in second class, assigned seat 5 abreast - 862 yuan
4 non-express high speed trains daily. Trip times 9:16 to 10:03 (average 211 to 227 km/h), with 11 to 16 intermediate stops (average 124 to 175 km between stops).

What is the exchange rate of rupees per yuan?
How do the current travel times, average speeds, seat and berth ticket prices between Delhi and Chennai compare?
How do the current flight ticket prices compare?
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Old April 10th, 2015, 06:42 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Compare the railway Beijing-Guangzhou.
Old line: 2298 km
On old line: 5 direct trains daily.
1 non-express. Travel time 29 hours 57 minutes (average 77 km/h). 23 intermediate stops (average 96 km between stops).
Ticket price in unassigned seat (or standing) 251 yuan
Ticket price in a 4 berth compartment 750 yuan in upper, 784 yuan in lower berth
4 express trains on slow railway. Travel time 21:01 to 21:44 (average 105 to 109 km/h). 3 to 7 intermediate stops. (average 287 to 575 km between stops)
Ticket prices the same as for non-expresses.
High speed railway: actual length 2104 km, to a new station in Guangzhou suburbs, about 20 km from old station.
1 express high speed train daily. Trip time 8:03 (average 261 km/h) with 4 intermediate stops (average 421 km between stops).
Ticket price in second class, assigned seat 5 abreast - 862 yuan
4 non-express high speed trains daily. Trip times 9:16 to 10:03 (average 211 to 227 km/h), with 11 to 16 intermediate stops (average 124 to 175 km between stops).

What is the exchange rate of rupees per yuan?
How do the current travel times, average speeds, seat and berth ticket prices between Delhi and Chennai compare?
How do the current flight ticket prices compare?
My observation was more a general one about usefulness of HS Rail over segment lengths.

I think sitting for 5+ hrs (1250km + at realistic HSR speeds of 250kmph) becomes a pain and the plane starts to look good again.
10+ hrs sleepers is workable (infact even desirable than the plane ) but I guess tickets will be pricier than airlines then.

Price data you provided was interesting. In summary is for 2000km trip in China - fares are
HSR - 860 Yuan
nonHSR - 250- 750 Yuan

Indian non HSR fare for Del Chennai (similar length ) is

INR 440 to INR 5000. (1 Yuan is 10 INR roughly)
3A class which is 3 tier AC is most popular for abt INR 2000
http://erail.in/12622-tamil-nadu-exp...-central)/fare

Airfare starts from INR 10000 roughly

If you had a sleeper option around 10K - ppl will take it everytime (saves on hotel as well)
If they had a seat option of abt 7000 , thats workable as well but beyond that it will be hard to find the market.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 05:26 AM   #76
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This is a relatively old video, it says China is helping India to establish a university focusing on rail technology etc summary of the previous news reports.

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Old June 6th, 2015, 02:51 AM   #77
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Quote:
India’s first bullet train corridor, between Mumbai and Ahmedabad, could turn out to be the cheapest high-speed train service in the world.

The Japanese team working on its feasibility study has worked out its “fare box revenue” model, according to which the bullet train fare will be just one-and-a-half times more than the AC-I fares of other trains on the same route.

According to this model, the Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train fare works out to about Rs 2,800, calculated on the basis of the current AC-I train fare of Rs 1,895. Currently, trains on this route take about eight hours for the 534-km journey. The bullet train is expected to take less than two hours.
http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...ble-ac-i-fare/
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Old June 19th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #78
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Airplanes are cheaper than High Speed Rail. India does not need High Speed Rail. We have the cheapest airfares in world. High Speed Rail will not be able to compete in India against airlines. In China High Speed Rail tickets are relatively cheap due to government subsidies.
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Old June 19th, 2015, 07:59 PM   #79
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Airplanes are cheaper than High Speed Rail. India does not need High Speed Rail. We have the cheapest airfares in world. High Speed Rail will not be able to compete in India against airlines. In China High Speed Rail tickets are relatively cheap due to government subsidies.
Absolutely disagree. Try to move number of people China or Japan are moving on high speed trains with airplanes and see how much it costs!

In China, you can argue government subsidizes high speed rail.... but in the same way you can argue it also subsidizes air travel. Both are SOEs.
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Old June 20th, 2015, 07:52 PM   #80
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US does not have High Speed Rail & moves a large number of people by planes. More the volumes less will be the cost due to economies of scale. So as air traffic will increase in India it will be cheaper to travel by planes.
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