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Old June 20th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #81
Sunfuns
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US is hardly a shining example of public transportation... The appeal of HSR is not that it's necessarily cheaper than flying (it could be but not always) but that on medium distances (1-3 h travel time) it is faster than any other mode of travel including a plane.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 01:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
US does not have High Speed Rail & moves a large number of people by planes. More the volumes less will be the cost due to economies of scale. So as air traffic will increase in India it will be cheaper to travel by planes.
You seriously don't know what are you talking about.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 01:50 PM   #83
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Checked the price for Mumbai - Ahmadabad flight ticket. Booking one week before journey costs me 3800 for return ticket. Now with high speed train it will cost me 2800 + 2800 = 5600. Why the hell will I pay 50% more for high speed rail than plane. India has the cheapest airline service in world. We do not need high speed rail. Reality is high speed rail is expensive compared to planes. China has high speed rail but it is subsidized by government. China rail has debt of USD 500 billion. Wait for some days & see China rail get bankrupt. US does not have high speed rail. This is not because they do not have money or technology. This is because they take commercial decision & high speed railway does not make commercial sense.

Now lets take a look at economics of high speed rail. It will cost 60000 crores to construct high speed rail between Mumbai & Ahmadabad. You need to get 10% return to pay debt so you need to earn 6000 crores per year just to pay interest. 6000 crores is more than profit of entire airline industry in India. That you need to earn just from single route. For capital budget of 60,000 crores you can buy 100 airbus 320. This is more than fleet size of Indigo Airlines, the largest in India. Now return ticket will cost 6000 as per their estimate. So to recover 6000 crores to pay for interest cost on 60000 crores you need to sell 1 crore tickets every year. That is more than twice the population of Ahmadabad and I am not even considering the operating cost. All airlines together sell 60 lakhs tickets in India every year and you need to sell 1 crores tickets just on Mumbai Ahmadabad route to pay interest cost.

Then there are operational difficulties in constructing high speed rail line. Where is the land in Mumbai to build high speed rail line. You need to build railway station at Vasai. Who will travel to Vasai to take a high speed rail. Then there is politics. Every MLA will want train to stop in his constituency. In the article it is mentioned that they will have 10 stations between Mumbai & Ahmadabad. So a stop every 50 km. High speed rail will not be able to accelerate to its full speed and we have a stop.

We need to invest on existing railway network to improve its efficiency. Build more double tracks and complete electrification project. If we increase average speed of system to 100 kmph it is more than enough. Foreign governments will try to sell high speed rail to India as they get revenues. But our imports will increase. If any foreign government is too keen, let them build and operate the high speed rail without any financial liability on our government. We must only provide land. I am sure in such a scenario no one will invest. They just want Indian government to take financial burden so that they can sell their technology.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 06:33 PM   #84
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Have you never heard of the multiplier effect.....

Some bedtime reading for you:
http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam...n-china-en.pdf
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Old June 21st, 2015, 06:46 PM   #85
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Abhitej sounds eerily similar to the anti-HSR lobbyists in my area. The arguments always revolve around financial constraints--as if public infrastructure macroeconomics should be conflated with running a lemonade stand. The arguments don't stand up to objective criticism, but they're still spouted. And surprise surprise, the opponents of the railways tend to be airline companies, oil companies, local landlords, etc. You know, vested interests.

Sure it's expensive, but EVERY advancement in infrastructure has paid dividends. You don't have to use the Chinese example. If the US did not set up (at incredible initial costs) its railway and interstate system, could it still function? Same thing with Europe, Japan, etc.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 08:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysonn341 View Post
Have you never heard of the multiplier effect.....

Some bedtime reading for you:
http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam...n-china-en.pdf
We can have a far bigger multiplier effect by improving our existing railway network.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 08:36 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by particlez View Post
Abhitej sounds eerily similar to the anti-HSR lobbyists in my area. The arguments always revolve around financial constraints--as if public infrastructure macroeconomics should be conflated with running a lemonade stand. The arguments don't stand up to objective criticism, but they're still spouted. And surprise surprise, the opponents of the railways tend to be airline companies, oil companies, local landlords, etc. You know, vested interests.

Sure it's expensive, but EVERY advancement in infrastructure has paid dividends. You don't have to use the Chinese example. If the US did not set up (at incredible initial costs) its railway and interstate system, could it still function? Same thing with Europe, Japan, etc.
Developing aviation sector is also advancement in infrastructure. You are saying that investment in High Speed Rail is advancement but investment in airports/planes is not which is a wrong argument. I am just objectively comparing planes & high speed rail. Planes have lots of advantages over high speed rail. Just because China built a high speed network does not mean everyone should.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 09:22 PM   #88
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Still a bit of food for thought:
A single 16-car N700a Shinkansen train can transport over 1300 persons, two E4 sets over 1600 (and there is nothing to stop you from using a even longer train. Imagine: a 24 car E4 formation would be able to carry 2450 people!)
To transport 1300 people by plane you ether need 2 Airbus A380s with all coach seating or several more smaller planes. A380s only use major airports because of their size and were never constructed for short haul flights. Major airport construction costs are massive and take up a lot of space.
The advantage of a high speed rail line is that you could also use it for other trains and that you can branch other lines from, provided it is constructed for the same gauge as the rest of the country.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 09:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Still a bit of food for thought:
A single 16-car N700a Shinkansen train can transport over 1300 persons, two E4 sets over 1600 (and there is nothing to stop you from using a even longer train.
Length of stations. 16 car Shinkansens are 400 m long.

How long are stations on the existing slow speed railways of India?
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Old June 21st, 2015, 11:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Length of stations. 16 car Shinkansens are 400 m long.

How long are stations on the existing slow speed railways of India?
500 mts given each coach is 22-23 mts in length and long distance trains are 24 coaches long.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 09:02 AM   #91
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In the top 14 of longest station platforms on Wikipedia 7 are Indian and the shortest is 720 meters and the longest is a whopping 1366 meters. Very long platforms are not uncommon in India.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 09:41 AM   #92
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India is both geographically and culturally more similar to Europe than it is to USA, so the comparison is a little off.

I'm awestruck at how slowly India is proceeding with HSR - it's not as if a hoard of Pakistanis are blocking a building sites or something. At this rate I would expect India to unveil a Mag-Lev network!

India needs to improve it's railway since it's so compact and dense. The USA doesn't have HSR due to political interests, a powerful car lobby (in a capitalist political culture), and a large sparse country. I'm comparison India is more liberal, dense, and culturally programmed to use trains.

Trains are easier and cheaper than planes, and are a nesecarry aspect of public transport that people expect. Especially in a country such as India, planes will never be enough to satisfy demand for seats or prices. By now I expect India to start linking second-tier cities (Pune, Madurai) to it's network, not stumbling about with it's core network!

Judging by it's speed of development, we will never see anything like small towns with modern rail infrastructure or a rail tunnel to Sri Lanka or large MRT systems. India needs to speed up if it's going to develop like China!
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 11:47 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Still a bit of food for thought:
A single 16-car N700a Shinkansen train can transport over 1300 persons, two E4 sets over 1600 (and there is nothing to stop you from using a even longer train. Imagine: a 24 car E4 formation would be able to carry 2450 people!)
To transport 1300 people by plane you ether need 2 Airbus A380s with all coach seating or several more smaller planes. A380s only use major airports because of their size and were never constructed for short haul flights. Major airport construction costs are massive and take up a lot of space.
The advantage of a high speed rail line is that you could also use it for other trains and that you can branch other lines from, provided it is constructed for the same gauge as the rest of the country.
High speed rail costs USD 50 million - 100 million per kilometer. For this you can buy one airbus 320. A 20000 kms network to cover India will cost atleast USD 2 trillion. Thats more than GDP of India. Reality is that planes are cheaper than high speed rail.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 11:54 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyrocket2 View Post
India is both geographically and culturally more similar to Europe than it is to USA, so the comparison is a little off.

I'm awestruck at how slowly India is proceeding with HSR - it's not as if a hoard of Pakistanis are blocking a building sites or something. At this rate I would expect India to unveil a Mag-Lev network!

India needs to improve it's railway since it's so compact and dense. The USA doesn't have HSR due to political interests, a powerful car lobby (in a capitalist political culture), and a large sparse country. I'm comparison India is more liberal, dense, and culturally programmed to use trains.

Trains are easier and cheaper than planes, and are a nesecarry aspect of public transport that people expect. Especially in a country such as India, planes will never be enough to satisfy demand for seats or prices. By now I expect India to start linking second-tier cities (Pune, Madurai) to it's network, not stumbling about with it's core network!

Judging by it's speed of development, we will never see anything like small towns with modern rail infrastructure or a rail tunnel to Sri Lanka or large MRT systems. India needs to speed up if it's going to develop like China!
Railways is cheaper than planes but high speed rail as of now is expensive than planes. You say that planes will not be able to satisfy demand for seats but thats your opinion. No reason for aviation sector not able to satisfy demand. In India plane tickets are already cheaper than high speed rail tickets in Europe or China.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 03:37 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
High speed rail costs USD 50 million - 100 million per kilometer. For this you can buy one airbus 320.
Going back to my example: A 16 car N700a Shinkansen can transport up to 1300 passengers. To transport 1300 passengers you need 7 A320s. Given a 3 minute separation at the runway and a similar number of return flights, a single runway is already occupied 42 minutes an hour.

Never mind if we would want to have more trains an hour in each direction. In Japan the Shinkansens at peak times run at 3 minute intervals in both directions, that is 20 trains an hour! That is 20x2x1300=52000 passengers an hour. If you were to use 800 seat A380s that would mean 65 planes an hour. Good luck constructing an airport for that. It would need at least 6 runways.
It would be twice as big the current busiest airport in the world and that is for one route only!
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 06:51 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
High speed rail costs USD 50 million - 100 million per kilometer. For this you can buy one airbus 320. A 20000 kms network to cover India will cost atleast USD 2 trillion. Thats more than GDP of India. Reality is that planes are cheaper than high speed rail.
the cost of high speed rail is $ 50 million to 100 million per km? Do you mean in Europe? Do you think the construction cost in India will be as high as Europe?
Secondly, buying airbus or Boing, India has to pay the European or Americans. But manufacturing the track, cement, the train within India will be beneficial for the industry of India
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 08:24 PM   #97
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Even in Europe it doesn't cost that much (ca 20 million euros per km in France, possibly less than that in Spain), maybe in US with their crazy jacked-up prices on all construction.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 02:29 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
Checked the price for Mumbai - Ahmadabad flight ticket. Booking one week before journey costs me 3800 for return ticket. Now with high speed train it will cost me 2800 + 2800 = 5600. Why the hell will I pay 50% more for high speed rail than plane. India has the cheapest airline service in world. We do not need high speed rail. Reality is high speed rail is expensive compared to planes. China has high speed rail but it is subsidized by government. China rail has debt of USD 500 billion. Wait for some days & see China rail get bankrupt. US does not have high speed rail. This is not because they do not have money or technology. This is because they take commercial decision & high speed railway does not make commercial sense.
This is ludicrously short sighted. Plane fares at this moment in time are a little bit cheaper than a hypothetical future fare on a high speed rail that hasn't even been built yet.

With the density of population in India you really need to be going for the 'all of the above' approach to transportation. China is building railways, airports and freeways. They all have their pros and cons so just thinking 'why build a railway when I can fly' is not really solving anything. Airports will reach capacity and freeways will get full of people going medium distances.

India should be investing in railways now, before land and labour get too expensive. Otherwise in 30 years or so you will have loads of airports everywhere with overcrowded skies and the same creaking overcrowded slow trains you have today.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 01:31 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vijesh108k View Post
rajdhani express chennai to delhi is current fastest train in India
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourierservice View Post
what is the avg speed and highest speed??
Chennai Rajdhani is perhaps not even in the top 15. If we consider the average speed for the entire journey, the fastest trains are the Rajdhanis and Durontos in the Delhi-Mumbai and Delhi-Kolkata (Howrah/Sealdah) line. The average speed is 85/86 km/h.

New Delhi - Sealdah Duronto
1459 km in 16h 55m. Avg Speed 86. Stops in between - 3.

Mumbai - Delhi Rajdhani
1386 km in 16h. Avg Speed 86. Stops in between - 5.

The fastest if we exclude the halt times is the Bhopal Shatabdi.
707 km in 8h 25m. Stops - 8. Avg Speed (excluding the halts) - 89 km/h.

This Bhopal Shatabdi reaches about 155 km/h in the stretch between Delhi and Agra which is perhaps the highest speed of all Indian Railways trains.

Last edited by invincibletiger; June 23rd, 2015 at 01:41 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2015, 03:03 AM   #100
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Japan offers to fund Mumbai-Ahmedabad high speed rail corridor

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India’s ambitious plan to construct the Mumbai-Ahmedabad high speed rail corridor reached a decisive stage on Tuesday, following the Japanese government’s offer to fund the Rs 988,050 million project at a low interest rate of 0.25% at Tuesday’s meeting of the Indo-Japan Joint Monitoring Committee (JMC).

The Japanese government’s loan offer comes with the rider that 30% of the rolling stock for the project would be sourced from Japanese firms, sources said.

A financial rate of return (RoR) of 4% and an economic RoR of 12% has been projected on what will be India’s first high-speed rail line, which is estimated to have a daily ridership of 40,000 passengers.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...1-1362086.aspx
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