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Old July 22nd, 2015, 02:07 PM   #121
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In Japan and Spain they had good reasons to switch to standard gauge for their high speed tracks. In India not so much. I don't see a high speed train to any of the neighbouring countries happening any time soon. India could be big enough a market by itself to justify usage of Indian gauge for high speed trains. Why limit yourself to standard gauge and it's size limitations when you can have passenger trains up to 3.6m wide and 5.1m high on Indian gauge? And remember: it's easier to make an existing train design higher and wider than to make it narrower and lower.
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:11 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
India has even less reason to move to standard gauge than Spain did because cross border passenger traffic will be truly marginal for any foreseeable future. Why are Japanese proposing this solution? Merely for their own convenience? It's not possible technically to achieve very high speeds on narrow gauge, but broader than standard should be no issue.
I suspect that the Japanese propose the introduction of the wider Shinkansen loading gauge for the high-speed line in order to increase seat capacity. With a wider loading gauge on high-speed lines there is very little need to adopt the Indian broad gauge from the classic lines.
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:38 PM   #123
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Having the same gauge as classical lines is an advantage because of potential for combined services. Maybe not for this line, but in the future for sure. There will never be enough money (or need really) to build HS lines to all sizeable towns.
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 05:30 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Having the same gauge as classical lines is an advantage because of potential for combined services. Maybe not for this line, but in the future for sure. There will never be enough money (or need really) to build HS lines to all sizeable towns.
High-speed services are built to connect the metropolises and not the towns. Serving towns along the route is a secondary by-product. This, however, doesn't mean that all kinds of towns get a direct high-speed access.
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 07:12 PM   #125
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Depends a bit on how we define a city/town. Let's say HSR for every city with half a million inhabitants or more. How many of those are already in India and how many more there will be when the country is 80%+ urban?
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 09:35 PM   #126
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If India doesn't have a lot of cross boarder traffic then I really don't see any reason they would change gauge. It's a much much larger network than Spain, and I think interconnectivity within the country is important. So it's easier to just build HSR to the existing gauge, especially since there is not speed concerns.
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Old July 24th, 2015, 11:26 AM   #127
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Well, I'm glad it has started a debate. In Spain politicians said the standard gauge (1435 mm) was the modernity, which would repair the historic mistake of 1844 and that Poland would join us.
However, no train can travel between Spain and Germany, Switzerland and Italy by various technical problems that have no relation to the gauge. There are trains could run between Madrid and Paris, not circulate because it is not profitable, and the daily train from Madrid to Toulouse and Marseille is maintained by internal traffic in Spain and France.

There is no technical problem for any manufacturer to trains make any gauge, trains are made to order with different characteristics for each operator.

With the same width as the rest of the network, any line that opens benefit cities covered by the line and their antennas: if the line A-B-C-D-E wins 5 hours, the trains that carry the A-B-C-Any city off line will win 2 1/2 hours, and only need to be dual voltage or be dual (hybrid). With transfer much of the gains with the HSR is lost.

Another advantage is that it is not necessary to duplicate lines, as claimed by the Spanish plans. If you need to make a variant to save time on a conventional line, it is only necessary to make the tunnel or variant and connect to the above lines.

Against this, what are the advantages of standard width ?.
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Old July 24th, 2015, 01:33 PM   #128
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However, no train can travel between Spain and Germany, Switzerland and Italy by various technical problems that have no relation to the gauge.
The only reason that doesn't happen is because there currently doesn't exist a train that has all the required train control systems. Because TGVs exist that run from France to Spain, Germany and Switserland, there is no reason why it couldn't be built. It just hasn't been done yet.

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Against this, what are the advantages of standard width?
First of all standard gauge is just a designation because it happens to be most used gauge. It wouldn't surprise me that in Spain and India they call their track width standard gauge, despite being different from what is commonly called standard gauge.

All major European manufacturers, except the Spanish, make standard gauge trains. Thus some common components can be made in greater number and thus cheaper. If in Spain there wasn't a desire to have lots of cross border traffic there would have been no reason to use it.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:51 PM   #129
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I wish we could invest in high speed rail in all four corners of the golden quadrilateral - particularly in west and south, where we have large clusters of cities close together. Even though the technology will become cheaper and more accessible in the future; the cost of land acquisition, labour, training and recruitment of railway engineers/technicians will rise.

Side note: People who reach IGI airport after 11 pm at night have to wait until about 5 am in the morning to catch a domestic flight. If we had high speed railway (Delhi to Agra), I could be in my hometown (Lucknow) in about 4 hrs instead of waiting all night. Many others would take advantage of such a service, I'm confident patronage is not a problem in India.
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Old September 29th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #130
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From Rail Journal:

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http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=540

India awards contracts for high-speed studies
Monday, September 28, 2015



INDIAN Railways (IR) awarded contracts on September 24 to carry out feasibility studies into the construction of three high-speed lines as part of the country's proposed Golden Quadrilateral network

The study into the Delhi - Mumbai high-speed line will be carried out by a consortium of China's Third Railway Survey and Design Institute Group Corporation of China and Lahmeyer International, India

...
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Old October 2nd, 2015, 05:12 PM   #131
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I too see no convincing reason to set up HSR on its own gauge.
Yes, the initial purchase of rolling stock would be slightly cheaper and tunnels could be smaller in diameter. But does that really outweigh the fact that it would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system?

Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 06:44 PM   #132
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Japan offers India soft loan for $15 billion bullet train - The Times of India

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NEW DELHI: Japan has offered to finance India's first bullet train, estimated to cost $15 billion, at an interest rate of less than 1 percent, officials said, stealing a march on China, which is bidding for other projects on the world's fourth-largest network.

Tokyo was picked to assess the feasibility of building the 505-kilometre corridor linking Mumbai with Ahmedabad, the commercial capital of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's home state, and concluded it would be technically and financially viable.

The project to build and supply the route will be put out to tender, but offering finance makes Japan the clear frontrunner.

Last month China won the contract to assess the feasibility of a high-speed train between Delhi and Mumbai, a 1,200-km route estimated to cost twice as much. No loan has yet been offered.

Japan's decision to give virtually free finance for Modi's pet programme is part of its broader push back against China's involvement in infrastructure development in South Asia over the past several years.

"There are several (players) offering the high-speed technology. But technology and funding together, we only have one offer. That is the Japanese," said AK Mital, the chairman of the Indian Railway Board, which manages the network.

The two projects are part of a 'Diamond Qaudrilateral' of high speed trains over 10,000km of track that India wants to set up connecting Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata.

Japan has offered to meet 80 percent of the Mumbai-Ahmedabad project cost, on condition that India buys 30 percent of equipment including the coaches and locomotives from Japanese firms, officials said.

Japan's International Cooperation Agency, which led the feasibility survey, said the journey time between Mumbai and Ahmedabad would be cut to two hours from seven. The route will require 11 new tunnels including one undersea near Mumbai.

"What complicates the process is Japanese linking funding to use of their technology. There must be tech transfer," said Mital.

Rickety rail

JICA declined to comment on the details of its offer. "The report has already been handed over to India, and the Indian government is now in the process of making a consideration," a spokeswoman said.

Toshihiro Yamakoshi, counsellor in the economic section of the Japanese embassy, said Japanese companies were keen to collaborate with their Indian counterparts on the rail project as part of Modi's Make-in-India programme. He said it was too early to provide details of the cooperation.

Tokyo's push in India comes just weeks after it lost out to China on the contract to build Indonesia's first fast-train link.

Beijing offered $5 billion in loans without asking for guarantees, an Indonesian official said, ending a months-long battle to build the line linking Jakarta with the textile hub of Bandung.

Japan's NHK broadcaster quoted Transport Minister Keiichi Ishii as saying that Prime Minister Shinzo Abe had instructed him to step up exports of transport systems to India and Southeast Asia.

"It is very regrettable that a high-speed railway project in Indonesia was awarded to China," he said.

China won the Delhi-Mumbai survey after securing clearance from Indian security agencies long worried about China's involvement in Indian infrastructure.

The two neighbours fought a war in 1962 over a border dispute that remains unresolved, though trade between them is booming.

India's cabinet will take a decision on the Japanese proposal over the next few weeks, an Indian railway official said. He said there were lingering concerns about whether the billions of dollars required for high-speed rail might be more usefully spent in modernising the railway system.

"There is a lot of money involved in this. The different departments are weighing the implications. Should we be committing all our resources to a single high-speed line," the railway official said on condition of anonymity."

"The railways have not attempted anything as big as this before in terms of costs," the official said.

India's rickety state-controlled rail system, which moves 23 million people a day, has a poor safety record and is in desperate need of funds to modernise it.

The average speed of trains is 54km/hour, and rail experts have argued that the priority ought to be to improve the speed and safety on existing trains and routes.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 04:32 PM   #133
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India clears Japanese plan to build High-Speed Rail Network

Cabinet clears Japanese plan to build high-speed rail. The decision ahead of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s visit beginning on Friday gives Tokyo an early lead over China

New Delhi: India’s cabinet has cleared a $14.7 billion Japanese proposal to build the country’s first bullet train line, a Cabinet Minister and an official said on Thursday, one of the biggest foreign investments in Indian infrastructure.

The decision ahead of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s visit beginning on Friday gives Tokyo an early lead over China, which is also bidding to construct high-speed train lines along large parts of India’s largely British-era rail system.

“It’s been done,” a Cabinet rank Minister who attended the meeting headed by the Prime Minister of India on Wednesday night told.

An official in the Prime Minister Modi’s office also confirmed the decision, saying there were some issues relating to the bullet train but that had since been sorted out in time for Abe’s visit.

“We expect to make an announcement during the visit,” the official said. Both the minister and the official spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The highly-anticipated multi-billion dollar deal is being touted as one of the biggest foreign investments in India’s ageing infrastructure. Japan offered an attractive financing package on the railway project to win over Indian leaders. Japan has offered to finance the project with a 50-year loan at an interest rate as low as 0.1%, the official said. India won’t have to start payment on the loan for 15 years, said another official familiar with the negotiations.

The bullet train line is expected to link the financial capital Mumbai and Ahmedabad in the state of Gujurat, cutting the 505km journey from at least eight hours to just two.

Japan is expected to lend India more than half the cost for the project – about $8bn – at very low interest rates for up to 50 years.

The Modi government has committed to invest $137bn in the country’s vast, but antiquated railway system over the next five years.

Last month, US’s General Electric and France’s Alstom also won billion-dollar contracts to provide India’s railways with new locomotives.

Japan couldn’t confirm whether the final decision had been made, the details of the deal or when any decision would be announced but the country is looking forward to backing the project if picked, said one senior Japanese government official familiar with the negotiations on Wednesday.

“If the Japanese system is chosen, we would work hard to ensure its smooth implementation,” said the official in Tokyo who asked not to be named.

Japan and India have been strengthening ties in the last 18 months as Asia’s two largest democracies look to build a counterweight to China.

In October, warships and aircraft from the U.S., India and Japan practiced hunting enemy submarines together in exercises in the Bay of Bengal, signaling the their deepening relationships and rising concerns about China’s growing military and economic influence in the region. China has been growing closer to many of India’s neighbors by backing big infrastructure projects.

A huge deal in India would help make up for Japan’s embarrassing losses in bids for high-speed rail contracts in Indonesia and Thailand to China. Japan’s failure had alarmed officials in Tokyo, heightening concerns that China is eclipsing Japan as the main economic partner for key countries in Southeast Asia.

The high-speed corridor is a pet project of Mr. Modi, who is trying to modernize the Indian economy. Under the Japanese proposal, construction is expected to begin in 2017 and be completed in 2023.

Indian Railways moving on the fast track

With 23 million passengers travelling on its 65,000-km network, the Indian Railways move an entire Australia every day. So, instead of putting more trains on the already crowded tracks, railway minister Suresh Prabhu’s strategy has been to give passengers more bang for the buck by speeding up the existing trains, for which a major exercise is now underway to upgrade no less than nine corridors. This will not be as good as the high-speed Mumbai-Ahmedabad super-fast train but still quite good.

But unfortunately, the gestation period for such complex civil engineering projects is years, not months. Till then the passengers will have to just wait.

This fast-train service is provided to suit all kinds of passengers, with the Rajdhani Expresses whisking away the well-heeled who may be averse to flying. On the other hand, daily wagers, migrant workers, students going home for a break, etc. have the Garib Rath, Sampark Kranti Express and other such long-distance super-fast trains to travel in comfortably without burning a hole in their pocket. Business people who wish to make a quick day-trip to major metros find the Shatabdi Inter-City Express trains useful.

The following corridors are slated for a rise in the maximum speed to 160-200 km per hour (kmph), for which feasibility studies are underway: New Delhi-Chandigarh, New Delhi-Mumbai, Chennai-Bengaluru-Mysore, Delhi-Kanpur, Nagpur-Bilaspur, Mumbai-Goa, Mumbai-Ahmedabad, Chennai-Hyderabad and Nagpur-Secunderabad.

A Chinese team is looking at the problems of the difficult Chennai-Bengaluru-Mysore section, 500 km, which is full of gradients and sharp curves. The Bengaluru-Mysore stretch was till recently metre gauge, an alignment which has been mostly retained even after its conversion to broad gauge.

The Konkan Railway, which will be upgrading the 700-km Panvel-Madgaon section (Mumbai-Goa corridor), may find the going relatively easy as the track is already laid for 160 kpmh, thanks to the far-sighted policy of E Shreedharan when he headed it as its first managing director.

With the LHB and the WDP4 locomotive diesel fit for 160 kpmh, trial runs had been undertaken as far back as in 2003, and speed up to 130 kpmh could be permitted right away. Increasing it to 160 kpmh would involve certain signalling and other inputs.

Seventy-seven projects for doubling, tripling and quadrupling very high-density corridors are being executed on a war footing. This will help decongest and considerably speed up trains and improve their punctuality.
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Old January 18th, 2016, 01:42 AM   #134
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Quote:
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With the Thiruvananthapuram-Kannur high-speed rail figuring in the Communist Party of India's development agenda, the 430-km north-south rail corridor that is expected to give a boost to the economy and make travel hassle-free has shot into the limelight again.

<snip>

The HSR will have a speed potential of 350 km per hour and Thiruvananthapuram to Kollam can be covered in 20 minutes, Kochi in 53 minutes, Kozhikode in 98 minutes, and Kannur in two hours.

Trains will run every 15 minutes during peak hours and every 30 minutes during non-peak hours although the line will have the capacity to run trains every 3 minutes, if needed. Of the total 430 km to Kannur, the rail line will be elevated over 190 km and underground for 146 km. The land to be acquired will be 600 hectares.

In the opening year, about a lakh passengers per day are expected to travel, which will go up to 1.25 lakh by 2025 and 1.75 lakh by 2040.

Full Newspaper story Link
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Old April 5th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #135
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From Rail Journal:

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http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

Delhi - Amritsar high-speed rail study completed
Tuesday, April 05, 2016



THE cost of constructing a 480km high-speed line linking Delhi with the holy city of Amritsar in the state of Punjab is estimated to be around Rs 1100bn ($US 20.8bn), according to a draft final report on the project by a consortium of Systra and Rites, which was submitted to the Indian Railways board last week

The line is part of the Indian government's proposed "Golden Quadrilateral" high-speed network which will be developed in phases starting with the Mumbai - Ahmedabad line, which is being financed by the Japanese government

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Old April 6th, 2016, 05:27 PM   #136
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From Rail Journal:
It will cost at least twice as much as the ones built in China.
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Old April 6th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #137
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http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report...-crore-2154883


A Rs 98,000-crore project to lay India's first bullet train network between commercial nerve centre of Mumbai and Ahmedabad was on Saturday finalised at the annual summit talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Japanese counterpart Shinzo Abe.

"No less historic is our decision to introduce High Speed Rail on the Mumbai-Ahmedabad sector through Japan's Shinkansen, known for its speed, reliability and safety," Modi said at a joint media event with Abe.

He also greatly appreciated Abe's extraordinary package of approximately $12 billion (approx Rs 98,000 crore) and technical assistance, on very easy terms, for this project.

Also read: Modi-Abe: India to get Japan's bullet train, deepen defence and nuclear ties

The bullet train network will link India's financial hub Mumbai with Ahmedabad, the capital of Modi's home state Gujarat. Bullet train between the two cities will cut travel time on the 505-kilometre route from eight hours to around three.

Also read: Mera train hai Japani: Japan to offer 81% loan for Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train

"This enterprise will launch a revolution in Indian railways and speed up India's journey into the future. It will become an engine of economic transformation in India," Modi said.

Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar said Japan will provide 80% of the funds for the project at 0.1% interest rate for a period of 50 years.

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Old April 10th, 2016, 08:32 PM   #138
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Why standard gauge? What's wrong with Indian wide gauge that would allow interoperability with the conventional network?
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Old April 10th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #139
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Maybe cheaper rolling stock in standard gauge? But really in Indian context Indian gauge would really make a lot more sense. Gauges substantially narrower than standard (like in Japan, for example) come with limitations regarding the speed, but broader gauges should be perfectly fine.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 05:16 AM   #140
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No, I think broad gauge HSR would be a very bad decision. I think that the one overarching factor is interoperability with the rest of the World. We have one chance to unite all countries with one standard for HSR. Russia should not have broad gauge HSR and neither should India. Japan did not have narrow gauge HSR and neither will Indonesia.

It's a tempting idea considering you *could* have higher capacity on trains on a wider gauge. On the other hand standard gauge trains can fit a large amount of seats as well. Asian HSR networks tend to be able to fit seats in a 3+2 arrangement, e.g. with a widened Siemens Velaro. Japan once used to have a double decker high speed trainset that even had seats in one class with a 3+3 arrangement! I sat on it once having not reserved a seat and, granted that it was more of a party in that carriage, it was not uncomfortable as expected. Plus, a full-length coupled trainset could fit twice as many seats as an Airbus A380.

And track gauge is not a significant limiting factor when it comes to maximising speeds. HSR technology has gone through leaps and bounds since mid last-century. The limiting factors are high costs due to the wear and tear of the catenary, track and wheels that come with speeds of over 300 km/h, not the gauge of the track.

So while it is tempting to use a standard that is already extensively used locally, I really hope the authorities will not succumb to this.
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