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Old April 11th, 2016, 06:54 AM   #141
Bbbut
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What a strange reason to argue for a foreign gauge.

There is no point in even thinking about what kind of trains are run in Russia or China or Europe, no point in looking to 'link up' countries. You know why? Because HSR beyond 5h of travel time becomes economically unviable against air travel!
No HSR service will ever sell a ticket from Mumbai to Moscow, end of argument.

To quote myself from above:

The initial purchase of rolling stock would be slightly cheaper and tunnels could be smaller in diameter. But does that really outweigh the fact that it would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system?

Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 07:10 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
It will cost at least twice as much as the ones built in China.
I have no details about this matter, the point is that in China land is government owned while in India the government has to pay for the land. California HSR is very expensive because the land is extremely expensive.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 09:57 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
What a strange reason to argue for a foreign gauge.

There is no point in even thinking about what kind of trains are run in Russia or China or Europe, no point in looking to 'link up' countries. You know why? Because HSR beyond 5h of travel time becomes economically unviable against air travel!
No HSR service will ever sell a ticket from Mumbai to Moscow, end of argument.
Standard gauge is no more "foreign" than broad gauge.

Yes, India has been using broad gauge on its rail lines for a very long time. To argue for interoperability with broad gauge, being the "standard" most-widely used gauge in India has obvious merit, but to say that standard gauge is "foreign" only brings a nationalistic angle to this issue which should simply be social, technical and economical. That's not saying that politics will not get in the way, as it usually does.

Australia had an unfortunate series of decisions made more than a century ago that meant the separate colonies adopted different gauges, widely described as broad, standard and narrow. When Australia decided to develop a national network, a lot of unneccessary work had to be done with interfacing and laying down of new sections of both standard gauge and dual-gauge track.

A closer case-in-point would be the Delhi Metro, which is of course not a high-speed system but Indian Railways was adamant in having it developed in broad gauge. They had their way for the first line but later lines were built at standard gauge, as are all other metro lines in India. Funnily enough, much of the rolling stock for both gauges has been manufactured locally by BEML albeit through technology-transfer agreements. A bigger point is that there is not much difference in the capacities of either type of trainset, axle load being the issue it seems.

Travelling Moscow to Mumbai by HSR is a red herring. HSR was not started for capital-to-capital travel, but to link major urban areas. That is still the case. Capitals tend to be major urban areas anyway. And travelling this gargantuan journey by HSR instead of by plane would indeed be uneconomical but who is arguing for this? Mentioning India and Russia as examples does not equate to travelling from India to Russia. My point is that a limiting the HSR network to broad gauge due to a short-term outlook would be a bad idea as history has shown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
The initial purchase of rolling stock would be slightly cheaper and tunnels could be smaller in diameter. But does that really outweigh the fact that it would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system?

Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.
Track gaugeloading gauge.

The Indian railway system, and by extension those of Pakistan and parts of Bangladesh, have a much larger loading gauge, which is great for capacity. But as I have stated, standard gauge does not limit capacity. However, the loading gauge does. Furthermore, loading gauge involves a lot more factors including the structure gauge and the dynamic and kinematic envelopes, which would be less of an issue for high-speed rail lines using wider curve radii. For comparison, India's passenger lines have a loading gauge of 3.7m x 5.3m while that of Japan's Shinkansen network is 3.4m x 4.5m (correct me if I am wrong). There's not much difference in the width but they do have different track gauges. Other important factors to consider are the axle limits and more importantly, the signalling system.

The impact of choosing broad gauge to create an "entry barrier", giving a boost to local industry, is questionable. Foreign manufacturers can easily adapt their models to different gauges, both for track and loading gauge. Japan has sold high speed trains to the UK. And as I mentioned, the Siemens Velaro model has been adapted across a variety of systems. Russia chose the Siemens Velaro to run on its upgraded high-speed broad gauge line between Moscow and St Petersburg, instead of developing their own trainsets. There are other factors that can much better assist the local industry get on board with this HSR opportunity.

Its unfortunately ironic to state that choosing standard gauge "would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system". Spain has shown that gauge transfer on this scale is feasible, what with 8mm in difference between the Iberian and Indian gauges.


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Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
end of argument.
One should not be so easy to stymie this debate on one's own accord.

Both sides have pros and cons but I am unfortunately inclined to this view that it would actually impact India more if broad gauge was chosen. No one wants to be lumped with a hodge-podge of gauges for wrongly-held reasons, but it cuts both ways, for India and for the World. Besides, we're only providing commentary and whatever we say here will probably have no effect on the decisions made.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 10:05 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
I have no details about this matter, the point is that in China land is government owned while in India the government has to pay for the land. California HSR is very expensive because the land is extremely expensive.

And therefore, belong to the people (PRC). They are very likely compensated. Most of the mass protests in China are land related - but rarely are they connected to railways.

Just ~6% of the total projected cost for California HSR ( source: http://www.hsr.ca.gov/docs/about/bus...3_Cap_Cost.pdf ).

http://peopleus.blogspot.ca/2012/12/...d-and-new.html

Last edited by skyridgeline; April 11th, 2016 at 10:14 AM.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 11:48 AM   #145
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@stingstingsting
Again what a strange kind of comment.
You confirm everything I said, acknowledge the pros of not changing the gauge and then arrive at the opposite conclusion for no reasons given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stingstingsting View Post
... unfortunately inclined to this view that it would actually impact India more if broad gauge was chosen.
Why?


Also, your examples do not apply, because Australia is a single country and a lot of trains do cross the state borders (so there was a need to harmonize internally). But as a whole, Australia has no need to coordinate with anyone outside, they could have made up their very own gauge and neither them or the rest of the world would have cared. You hopefully realize that is an argument for keeping the Indian gauge.
Dito with Metro trains, they are almost always not compatible with the main line railways anyway (yes I know some very few are, spare me the 'lecture'). They might as well be monorails or whatever, they do not affect main line train systems.


PS:
I really do not like to be quoted out of context, especially when you hold the exact same view, thank you very much.
Quote:
Quote:
end of argument.
One should not be so easy to stymie this debate on one's own accord.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 03:08 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.
Japan is providing 100% Transfer-of-Technology for their bullet train.80% of the components will be made by Indian companies in India and the rest 20% by Japanese companies in India.
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Old April 11th, 2016, 03:38 PM   #147
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What.

1. I am not commenting nor am I out to make 'strange comments'. I have not confirmed everything you've said. I have argued your points. I even quoted your entire "to quote myself from below...". Please pay the courtesy to retort each point sans characterisation.

2. When have I ever stated that broad gauge was a better choice for HSR? Did you not read everything I wrote? I have gone at lengths to argue against broad gauge on each of your points yet all you do is simply brush it all off

3. I did say that it cuts both ways. I acknowledge that there are pros and and cons with choosing either broad or standard. You either adopt the Indian standard of broad gauge or you adopt the HSR standard which, being the most commonly used, is standard gauge. I have indeed (lo and behold) acknowledged the pros of not changing the gauge - the HSR gauge. So I've come to the conclusion that standard gauge has more benefits for India's HSR on balance.

4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
You hopefully realize that is an argument for keeping the Indian gauge.
You hopefully realise that the fact that India is connected by land to pretty much the rest of the World (whereas Australia is separated by oceans and seas) is an argument for using standard gauge. Yeah who cares what Australia chose, but hey it chose standard gauge. Who cares what Japan chose, being an island, but hey it chose standard gauge. WHO CARES

5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
Dito with Metro trains, they are almost always not compatible with the main line railways anyway (yes I know some very few are, spare me the 'lecture'). They might as well be monorails or whatever, they do not affect main line train systems.
If you cared to delve more a little more into my original 'lecture' (LOL very kind of you thank you), you would have realised that I was specifically referring to the Delhi Metro example, not all metro systems. Indian Railways was making exactly the same reasons that you have made for pushing for broad gauge for the Delhi Metro, but in the end they were wrong and it didn't matter anyway. And like you state, since the metro operations do not affect the main line train systems, what's the point then of having broad gauge? Following your own line of argument, what's the point of having HSR in broad gauge then?

6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
I really do not like to be quoted out of context, especially when you hold the exact same view, thank you very much.
Oh I don't like to be misrepresented either. Have I ever mentioned travelling from Mumbai to Moscow (quite catchy actually)? I don't care what you like and I don't hold your "exact same view" So stop painting it like I was bulldozing you (and broad gauge) and maybe you could stop doing the same too THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH for the patron(ising)age
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Old April 12th, 2016, 09:28 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stingstingsting View Post
Its unfortunately ironic to state that choosing standard gauge "would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system". Spain has shown that gauge transfer on this scale is feasible, what with 8mm in difference between the Iberian and Indian gauges.
But the Indian rail network doesn't need interoperability with other countries: its network by itself is likely bigger than the entire European network together. Most trains will never even get close to a border, let alone cross it.

Anyway, widening trains is technically easy, narrowing is not. Velaro RUS, all Chinese HSTs and all Shinkansen are already 3,4 m wide (that's +45 cm over standard European models). Adding an extra 20 cm will not be any problem at all, in fact it is less then the width difference between a Shinkansen and a mini Shinkansen.
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Old April 12th, 2016, 10:57 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
But the Indian rail network doesn't need interoperability with other countries: its network by itself is likely bigger than the entire European network together. Most trains will never even get close to a border, let alone cross it.
I acknowledge that this is the current situation. But can anyone say what will happen in 5 years or in a decade, or twenty years? I will not be surprised once a standard gauge high speed rail spine gets built from Southern China to Southeast Asia and through to Singapore. Neither will I be surprised if China decides to drill through Everest. I mean yes it is wacko. But think how far China's rail network has come through the past decade alone. Ten years back, I would have thought it was wacko for China to build a 2000km line almost to Kazakhstan, but it has.

I agree there are issues. I acknowledge it was not as difficult within China. As an example, China's short HSR link with Hong Kong has encountered considerable delays and Hong Kong is not a separate country so who knows what more delays can happen with other countries. This is not about China alone, but how HSR is becoming increasingly more prevalent worldwide. So my point is why restrict this HSR Quadrilateral-to-be to broad gauge? I have already dismissed capacity and loading gauge to be an issue. If you are talking about running HS trains off the quadrilateral onto the current Indian Railways network, gauge changers are an established technology. Otherwise, dual-gauging or regauging are options that are feasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Anyway, widening trains is technically easy, narrowing is not. Velaro RUS, all Chinese HSTs and all Shinkansen are already 3,4 m wide (that's +45 cm over standard European models). Adding an extra 20 cm will not be any problem at all, in fact it is less then the width difference between a Shinkansen and a mini Shinkansen.
Narrowing a trainset would be harder than widening one. So why not run these now off-the-shelf widened trainsets, already in use overseas, on the current Indian Railways broad gauge network, with gauge change wheelsets? Capacity will not be impacted. I don't even think it would be much of an issue to increase the loading gauge of HSR to fit the Indian Railways width. (+30cm) but why would you need to? Extendable footsteps at egress points is an established technology, that can be used at current Indian Railways platform.

This seems complicated because the arguments for standard gauge can be similar to the arguments for broad gauge. The big driver has to be, what's better for India, both in the short run and in the long run.
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Old April 30th, 2016, 07:59 PM   #150
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Mumbai-Ahmedabad bullet train to navigate 21 km tunnel under sea

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Passengers will get the thrill of riding under the sea while travelling between Mumbai and Ahmedabad in the first bullet train of the country.
The 508 km long Mumbai-Ahmedabad high speed rail corridor will have a 21 km long tunnel under the sea, said a senior Railway Ministry official involved with the public transporter’s ambitious bullet train project.
While most part of the corridor is proposed to be on the elevated track, there will be a stretch after Thane creek towards Virar which will go under the sea as per the detailed project report by JICA.
http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...unnel-2762716/
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Old May 3rd, 2016, 09:08 PM   #151
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A couple of opinions (already published in this thread) from spanish experience.

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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
It seems that Japan's commitment to offer the installation of standard gauge, although 90% of the Indian network has a gauge of 1,676 mm.

From the Spanish experience of adopting the standard gauge for high-speed network with 90% of Iberian network (1,668 mm) wide, I can only give you a tip: not moving the external borders within the country, there will be more domestic traffic out.

Now there are only 5 trains daily to France, suffice one gauge changer and 10 steps a day for him.
But instead, we gauge changer 26, 12 in service, 5 without traffic and 9 for workshops. Every day are made, not counting the steps by workshops, an average of 101 steps per gauge changer.
In addition, the gauge is just the first problem, then there are security systems, backup security systems, electric power, electromagnetic interference ...

Do not make the same mistake.
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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Well, I'm glad it has started a debate. In Spain politicians said the standard gauge (1435 mm) was the modernity, which would repair the historic mistake of 1844 and that Poland would join us.
However, no train can travel between Spain and Germany, Switzerland and Italy by various technical problems that have no relation to the gauge. There are trains could run between Madrid and Paris, not circulate because it is not profitable, and the daily train from Madrid to Toulouse and Marseille is maintained by internal traffic in Spain and France.

There is no technical problem for any manufacturer to trains make any gauge, trains are made to order with different characteristics for each operator.

With the same width as the rest of the network, any line that opens benefit cities covered by the line and their antennas: if the line A-B-C-D-E wins 5 hours, the trains that carry the A-B-C-Any city off line will win 2 1/2 hours, and only need to be dual voltage or be dual (hybrid). With transfer much of the gains with the HSR is lost.

Another advantage is that it is not necessary to duplicate lines, as claimed by the Spanish plans. If you need to make a variant to save time on a conventional line, it is only necessary to make the tunnel or variant and connect to the above lines.

Against this, what are the advantages of standard width ?.
Passengers and Passengers-kilometers world data, and explanation of the fact that the operators and the UIC count -in some cases- the number of passengers on high-speed trains, not on high-speed lines.
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Old May 16th, 2016, 04:56 AM   #152
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Joint committee to meet in Tokyo on high speed rail project

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To take forward the ambitious Mumbai-Ahmedabad high speed rail project announced by the government in December last year in partnership with Japan, a high-level Indian delegation led by Niti Aayog vice-chairman Arvind Panagariya and Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar will attend a joint committee meeting on the project in Tokyo on Monday.
http://www.thehindu.com/business/Ind...cle8604145.ece

also:
http://www.asianage.com/mumbai/team-...train-plan-721
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Old May 31st, 2016, 11:37 AM   #153
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New HSR route may be mainly elevated

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Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ambitious bullet train project between Mumbai and Ahmedabad, may take the elevated route. That is if the Japanese consultants give a go-ahead to Rail Bhavan's request for a route review before the execution stage.

Top Rail Bhavan officials confirmed that the Indian government wants the entire 508-km corridor to be built on an elevated stretch to avoid any legal and environmental hurdles regarding land acquisition. PM Modi, who has been pushing his ministers to speed up the big-ticket projects, has often encountered legal barriers in several states.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/g.../1/681328.html
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 04:47 AM   #154
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Germany to study HSR route

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NEW DELHI: Speed seems to be the latest mantra for Railways as it has roped in Germany to undertake feasibility study for running high speed trains on the southern corridor.

"It was decided at a meeting today with the high level German delegation that Germany will conduct feasibility study on Chennai-Bangalore-Mysore section for running high speed train. Germany will also bear the expenditure for the study," said a senior Railway Ministry official.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52525878.cms
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 07:23 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
I have no details about this matter, the point is that in China land is government owned while in India the government has to pay for the land. California HSR is very expensive because the land is extremely expensive.
Techinically speaking you are right the government does own the land however farmers who lease the land and houseowners who own their own property on government land are entitled to compensation. There is still considerable cost involved.
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 07:31 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
What a strange reason to argue for a foreign gauge.

There is no point in even thinking about what kind of trains are run in Russia or China or Europe, no point in looking to 'link up' countries. You know why? Because HSR beyond 5h of travel time becomes economically unviable against air travel!
No HSR service will ever sell a ticket from Mumbai to Moscow, end of argument.

To quote myself from above:

The initial purchase of rolling stock would be slightly cheaper and tunnels could be smaller in diameter. But does that really outweigh the fact that it would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system?

Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.
You don't have a logical argument in so far as the Delhi to Moscow Line is concerned. There are not just two stations on that line there would be dozens many of them located in places not served by an airport. Most HSR journeys are not end to end destination wise but from one point along the line to another. For example not every passenger on the Beijing to Shanghai HSR is travelling only between those two points. Large HSR networks form a criss cross pattern so multiple destinations via multiple lines would be possible a much more flexible form of travelling not to mention more affordable over the short haul for the working class.
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Old December 23rd, 2016, 05:00 PM   #157
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=523

A tripartite agreement to formalise the deal was signed this week by Indian Railways (IR), NHSRC and the Japan International Cooperation Agency (Jica).

Consultants selected for Mumbai - Ahmedabad HSL
Friday, December 23, 2016



INDIA’s National High Speed Rail Corporation (NHSRC), Japan International Consultants for Transportation (JIC), Nippon Koei, and the Oriental Consultants Global Company Limited joint venture has been appointed as general consultants to execute India’s first high-speed rail corridor linking Mumbai with Ahmedabad

A tripartite agreement to formalise the deal was signed this week by Indian Railways (IR), NHSRC and the Japan International Cooperation Agency (Jica)

...
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Old February 20th, 2017, 09:51 AM   #158
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Test drills begin for undersea HSR route

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NEW DELHI: Drilling of the seven-km undersea route of the Mumbai-Ahmedabad rail corridor is underway to ascertain soil condition of India's first bullet train path.

Passengers will get the thrill of riding under the sea, a first in the country, near Thane at a maximum speed of 350 km per hour in the upcoming high speed train project connecting two major metropolis.

"Soil and rocks below the 70-metre-deep see are being tested as part of the geo-technical and geo-physical investigation undertaken for the entire project," said a senior Railway Ministry official, adding "the test will also cover the 21-km-long underground tunnel between Thane and Virar."
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/57232725.cms
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Old June 17th, 2017, 09:40 PM   #159
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Indian Railways to order 25 high speed trains

INDIA: A 10-car variant of JR East’s Series E5 Shinkansen trainset has been selected to operate the country’s first high speed line between Mumbai and Ahmedabad, according to the Ministry of Railways. Indian Railways is expected to order an initial build of 25 trains at an estimated cost Rs50bn.

...

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...ed-trains.html
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 10:26 PM   #160
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PM Modi, Shinzo Abe To Perform Groundbreaking Ceremony Of India's Bullet Train Project

The groundbreaking ceremony (bhoomi-pujan) for Mumbai-Ahmedabad High Speed Rail Project, commonly referred to as the bullet train project, will be performed in Ahmedabad on September 14.

...

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-mo...roject-1744525
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