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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #561
Penn's Woods
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I would say New York (and other American cities) was in a state of decay and decline: people moving to the suburbs, downtowns (less so in New York) losing business to suburban malls, crime rates far higher than they are now.... It probably bottomed out around 1980. In 1973 I was nine years old and growing up 20 miles from New York. In the suburbs, the city was perceived (probably unfairly) as a place where you didn't want to be out alone at night....

What does this have to do with the state of the pavement on Canal Street? I suppose the city was having some trouble holding it together (about 1975, the city government did declare bankruptcy or have its finances taken over by the state...I forget the details); one of the most visible signs of decay in those days that you would never see now is subway cars covered in graffiti. Today, they're clean. Times Square was a center for porn and prostitution; today it's a center of tourism and fairly safe.

It's a different city today, really.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I would say New York (and other American cities) was in a state of decay and decline: people moving to the suburbs, downtowns (less so in New York) losing business to suburban malls, crime rates far higher than they are now.... It probably bottomed out around 1980. In 1973 I was nine years old and growing up 20 miles from New York. In the suburbs, the city was perceived (probably unfairly) as a place where you didn't want to be out alone at night....

What does this have to do with the state of the pavement on Canal Street? I suppose the city was having some trouble holding it together (about 1975, the city government did declare bankruptcy or have its finances taken over by the state...I forget the details); one of the most visible signs of decay in those days that you would never see now is subway cars covered in graffiti. Today, they're clean. Times Square was a center for porn and prostitution; today it's a center of tourism and fairly safe.

It's a different city today, really.
Thanks Rudolph Giuliani.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #563
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Also cause ended the crack epidemic in 1990. Otherwise I guess neither Giuliani could do something. Even if in 1973 NY was in decay, this was nothing comparating with the decay of of the 80's and 90's.

Here some pics of South Bronx in the 80's and 90's

View NE from 136th St. and Cypress Ave. along the Bruckner Expressway. 1989


View S of railyard from M ill Brook Houses at 136th St. and Cypress Ave. 1989


View NW from rooftop of Mill Brook Houses on 137th St. and Cypress Ave. 1989


View W along 137th St. fro m rooftop of Mill Brook Houses on spot between St. Ann's Ave. and Cypre ss Ave. 1993


View SW from Bruckner Exp ressway along 137th St. 1990


View SW of 138th St. from Cypress Ave. Towards St. Ann's. 1977


View NW along 138th St. from mid block between Cypress Ave. and Jackson Ave. 1989


View SW along 139th St. from rooftop on Brook Ave. 1993


View SW along 139th St. from rooftop on 139th St. betwewn Cypress Ave. and St. Ann's Ave. 1989


View NW from roof of 579 E 138th St towards 139th St. 1992


View E along 139th St from rooftop between Cypress Ave. and St. Ann's Ave. 1989


View NW along 140th St. from Cypress Ave. 1990


View E along 140th St. fro m Cypress Ave. 1993


View E from St. Ann's Ave. 1989


View NW from 141st St. between Crimmins Ave. and Beekman Ave. 1989


View NW towards St. Mary' s Park Showing car stripping location. 1989


View E from rooftop on St. Ann's Ave. along St. Mary's street. 1990


View W along St. Mary's St. 1992


View W along 137th St. from Brook Ave. 1993


View N along Brook Ave. 1993


View NW from rooftop on Brook Ave. and 140th St. 1993


View NW of corner of 141s t St. and St. Ann's Ave. 1992


View NE towards St. Mary's Park from Crimmins Ave. and Oak Terrace. 1990


View SE along Crimmins Ave. from Oak Terrace. 1990


View N along Beekman Ave. from 141st St. 1980


View NW of Beekman Ave. from 141st St. 1989


View NW along Beekman Ave. towards Oak Terrace. 1989


View SW along Beekman Ave. from St. Mary's Park. 1990


View N from 136th St. 1993


View N along Cypress Ave. 1989


View NW corner of Cypress Ave. 1989


View S along Cypress Ave. from rooftop at 238 Cypress Ave. on corner of 139th St. 1993


View SW of 283 Cypress Ave. from rooftop on 140th St. 1991


View SE from Cypress Ave. 1993


View W along Cypress Ave. 1993


Despite South Bronx in those years was awful and dangerous, if I would have the time machine certainly I would want to visit it in the mid 80's. I don't know why, but I find it somehow fascinating this decay. Maybe cause it's interesting to see and understand how drugs and savage immigration can change completely a district, in relation to a ignoring policy of the big shots
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #564
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"savage immigration"?
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #565
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"savage immigration"?
Yes. From Porto Rico
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Old October 29th, 2012, 08:07 PM   #566
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Savage immigration doesn't exist in English. Just because we say "immigrazione selvaggia" doesn't mean that they use the direct transation of this expression in every language. In English you say illegal immigration.

Apart from linguistic issues, can it be regarded as external immigration? Puerto Rico is part of the USA, even if it's not a state but a territory.
Are there custom and immigration checks between PR and the USA?
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Old October 29th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #567
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Savage immigration doesn't exist in English. Just because we say "immigrazione selvaggia" doesn't mean that they use the direct transation of this expression in every language. In English you say illegal immigration.
But it's not illegal what I meant. A clandestine is illegal. I meant proper "savage" or better explained as "more people than the labour market requires, without control". Absurd exemple: 1.000.000 million people move from NY to Philadelphia. It wouldn't be illegal, but "savage" (or whatever english word fits with it)
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Old October 29th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #568
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+1 to italystf's post.

On the linguistic point, I knew what you (Satyricon) meant (because "immigration sauvage" works in French*), but "savage" in English would mean wild, uncivilized. It would be taken as referring not to the immigration but to the people.

I imagine population movements into the South Bronx were mainly blacks from the South, and Puerto Ricans. I wouldn't call either of those groups immigrants.

*That said, I thought it meant "uncontrolled" - i.e., in excessive numbers - rather than "illegal."
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Old October 29th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #569
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+1 to italystf's post.

On the linguistic point, I knew what you (Satyricon) meant (because "immigration sauvage" works in French*), but "savage" in English would mean wild, uncivilized. It would be taken as referring not to the immigration but to the people.

I imagine population movements into the South Bronx were mainly blacks from the South, and Puerto Ricans. I wouldn't call either of those groups immigrants.

*That said, I thought it meant "uncontrolled" - i.e., in excessive numbers - rather than "illegal."
Yes I think uncontrolled is the right word. Despite savage would fits with a large number of people attracted by south Bronx in those years: squatters, drug addicts, mentally ill and all types of criminals. All people who lowered the quality of life there
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Old October 29th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #570
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I imagine population movements into the South Bronx were mainly blacks from the South, and Puerto Ricans. I wouldn't call either of those groups immigrants.
*That said, I thought it meant "uncontrolled" - i.e., in excessive numbers - rather than "illegal."
It was similar to the Italian situation in the past decades, when thousands of people from the poorest areas of the country (mostly the South and islands, but also rural areas in the Center and North-East) used to emigrate to more industrialized areas (mainly the North-West but later also the North-East, Tuscany and Rome). It is called "internal immigration" and in a period when there was little external immigration (because of the iron curtain and the lower level of globalization compared with today) it was seen like a serious social issue in Northern Italy industrial cities.
In the fascist period they passed a law that allowed people to move within Italy only if they already had a workplace at their destination. This law remained valid also for few years after the war, even if it was in contrast with our democratic costitution.

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Despite South Bronx in those years was awful and dangerous, if I would have the time machine certainly I would want to visit it in the mid 80's. I don't know why, but I find it somehow fascinating this decay. Maybe cause it's interesting to see and understand how drugs and savage immigration can change completely a district, in relation to a ignoring policy of the big shots
Unfortunately you don't need a time machine, nor you have to cross the ocean. Outskirt of many European cities, most notably Naples and Paris, already offer scenarios like that or even worse.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #571
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In the fascist period they passed a law that allowed people to move within Italy only if they already had a workplace at their destination. This law remained valid also for few years after the war, even if it was in contrast with our democratic costitution.
The concept of the law wasn't wrong; this prevented what happened from the 60's in the industrial city of the north: urban sprawl, ghettoization, criminal infiltrations, popular districts overcrowd. The results of this Laissez-faire are well visible nowadays: over 30% of under-35 y.o. is unemployed and an evident disequilibrium between northern regions and southern regions.


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Originally Posted by Italystf
Unfortunately you don't need a time machine, nor you have to cross the ocean. Outskirt of many European cities, most notably Naples and Paris, already offer scenarios like that or even worse.
Yup, in Milan too (Quarto Oggiaro district is famous in the whole Italy) but they're not fascinating as it was South Bronx for me. Scampia, parisian banlieues...they are just slums. South Bronx instead was... South Bronx It's like a legend for us grew up in the 90's. When I was child there was a common expression here: when you were in front of a sign of urban decay (for example in the 90's were common to find syringes used by heroin addictes in parks and parkings) was common to say "sembra di stare nel Bronx" (seems to be in the Bronx)

Edit: an example of what I wanted to say with "Bronx is a legend": the sign in my town The are only two streets for enter in my town and in both sign is written "Ruginello Bronx". This cause in the mid of the 90's Ruginello, that is just a frazione (around 1.000 inhabitants) of Vimercate was the place, due a large wood in the territory, where drugs addicted used to go. So from this fact was born the "joke" to define Ruginello the Bronx of Vimercate. A joke hard to die even after 20 years.....


Last edited by Satyricon84; October 29th, 2012 at 09:52 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #572
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Parts of the Bronx are perfectly civilized. Like Chicago, notwithstanding the fact that Belgians call Charleroi "Chicago-sur-Sambre."
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #573
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Parts of the Bronx are perfectly civilized. Like Chicago, notwithstanding the fact that Belgians call Charleroi "Chicago-sur-Sambre."
I guess nowadays the new "Bronx" in the USA are Camden on the East Coast, Compton & Watts on the West Coast, right?
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Old October 29th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
The concept of the law wasn't wrong; this prevented what happened from the 60's in the industrial city of the north: urban sprawl, ghettoization, criminal infiltrations, popular districts overcrowd. The results of this Laissez-faire are well visible nowadays: over 30% of under-35 y.o. is unemployed and an evident disequilibrium between northern regions and southern regions.
Yes, but it's difficult to draw a line beween what is internal immigration and what it isn't. If you move from Palermo to Milan is the classical internal immigration, but what about if you move from Milan to Turin? Or even from Milan to Sesto San Giovanni? (it's still a different municipality even if part of Milan metro area). Should one be denied to move there just because (s)he still work in Milan and not in Sesto San Giovanni? Should we call it "immigration" when you cross a provincial or regional border (so you "emigrate" when you move to the neighbouring house if you live in one of the few villages cut in two by the Veneto - Friuli border ). Should we indroduce a distance limit (like 100km)? But what distance? What about if the distance is, for example, 96km by road, 101 by rail and 108 via motorway?
Apart for these problems, a such law would be unacceptable for a XXI centuru EU democracy, like creating separate school classes for foreigh immigrants or banning the exposure of religious symbols (all religions).



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Yup, in Milan too (Quarto Oggiaro district is famous in the whole Italy) but they're not fascinating as it was South Bronx for me. Scampia, parisian banlieues...they are just slums. South Bronx instead was... South Bronx It's like a legend for us grew up in the 90's. When I was child there was a common expression here: when you were in front of a sign of urban decay (for example in the 90's were common to find syringes used by heroin addictes in parks and parkings) was common to say "sembra di stare nel Bronx" (seems to be in the Bronx)
Those gritty places are relevant for fans of rap\hip hop music. The Bronx, together with Detroit, is the birthplace of the American rap. Quarto Oggiaro (I didn't know it was so bad) is home of the rap crew "Squarto Gang".
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Old October 29th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #575
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Mexico City:

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Hize un comparativo en los foros internacionales, pero me gusto y lo paso para acá

Paseo de la Reforma

1870


1900


1930


1950


1960?


2000 (1999)


2011


2014



Ángel de la independencia

~1910


1932


1960?


~2000


2012
[/QUOTE]
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Old October 29th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #576
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Yes, but it's difficult to draw a line beween what is internal immigration and what it isn't. If you move from Palermo to Milan is the classical internal immigration, but what about if you move from Milan to Turin? Or even from Milan to Sesto San Giovanni? (it's still a different municipality even if part of Milan metro area). Should one be denied to move there just because (s)he still work in Milan and not in Sesto San Giovanni? Should we call it "immigration" when you cross a provincial or regional border (so you "emigrate" when you move to the neighbouring house if you live in one of the few villages cut in two by the Veneto - Friuli border ). Should we indroduce a distance limit (like 100km)? But what distance? What about if the distance is, for example, 96km by road, 101 by rail and 108 via motorway?
I guess there would be a limit of distance relating of the infrastructres present in the territory (and this could cause the construction of new infrastructures where there aren't enough). I wouldn't excluse such law at all, but modernize it to fit nowadays (the fascist law was made when few people had a car, few infrastructures, etc...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf
Apart for these problems, a such law would be unacceptable for a XXI centuru EU democracy, like creating separate school classes for foreigh immigrants or banning the exposure of religious symbols (all religions).
I am pessimist about EU democracy: I'm pretty sure that the way which we took with Euro and all others laws puked off the EU-headquarter will bring either a collapse of the system or a new war in Europe. The pro-EU enthusiasm will die when people won't have money anymore. And with 30% + unemployment (with Spain, Greece and Portugal in the same conditions) I think that day will come soon. So I guess a return to the past.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84

I guess there would be a limit of distance relating of the infrastructres present in the territory (and this could cause the construction of new infrastructures where there aren't enough). I wouldn't excluse such law at all, but modernize it to fit nowadays (the fascist law was made when few people had a car, few infrastructures, etc...).

I am pessimist about EU democracy: I'm pretty sure that the way which we took with Euro and all others laws puked off the EU-headquarter will bring either a collapse of the system or a new war in Europe. The pro-EU enthusiasm will die when people won't have money anymore. And with 30% + unemployment (with Spain, Greece and Portugal in the same conditions) I think that day will come soon. So I guess a return to the past.
Umberto Bossi, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen and Victor Orban like this element.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 11:27 PM   #578
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Old October 30th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #579
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LOL
Viktor is sometimes referred to as "Viktator"; nevertheless let's not forget that the ex-Commie governments from 2002 to 2010 violated democracy and democratic principles far more than Victor's, and their performance was desastrous ... no other government will be capable to get the cart out of the mud in four years, as deep as the ex-Commies drove it in ...
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Old October 31st, 2012, 09:22 PM   #580
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Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. New York, 1973
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