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Old February 28th, 2016, 12:13 AM   #1321
Kanadzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
... meanwhile I almost always manage to pull up too far away from the machine and have to get out to get the ticket. I guess there are some advantages after all, but still, it's the first time I've ever seen such a thing. My first experience of toll roads was in France and Spain in 1994 though, so that sort of explains why.
Even today in the US like the New York Thruway when you enter there is a person to hand you the ticket, then you hand it to another person when exiting who calculates your toll... Probably 75 cents of every dollar you spend is just to pay them
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Old February 28th, 2016, 12:26 AM   #1322
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If that was the condition of the main road from Zagreb to Belgrade, I can't imagine how bad some roads must have been.
They were better. Yes, ZG-BG was the most important road in the country, but this also means it was heavily travelled, so it was in a bad condition. Local roads are better, because they are less travelled.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 12:53 AM   #1323
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They were better. Yes, ZG-BG was the most important road in the country, but this also means it was heavily travelled, so it was in a bad condition. Local roads are better, because they are less travelled.
And on film is the remaining section with original concrete pavement shown. Upgrade to four-lane motorway was in progress. It was completed in late 90's.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 02:04 AM   #1324
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They were better. Yes, ZG-BG was the most important road in the country, but this also means it was heavily travelled, so it was in a bad condition. Local roads are better, because they are less travelled.
I've found some videos that are pretty shocking - for instance, this one :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guiPgo3J7EE

They really just left wrecks by the side of the road back then?

This is also interesting -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLkC79Zl12o

But - the word Autoput was used in Zagreb? Later on, presumably in Slovenia, there's a sign saying Autocesta.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:10 AM   #1325
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Wow, the Ljubljana-Zagreb expressway in 1964, thanks for the video! It says 'Autoput' at the beginning, and then 'Autocesta' and 'Avtocesta' at the end.

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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:23 PM   #1326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
I've found some videos that are pretty shocking - for instance, this one :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guiPgo3J7EE

They really just left wrecks by the side of the road back then?

This is also interesting -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLkC79Zl12o

But - the word Autoput was used in Zagreb? Later on, presumably in Slovenia, there's a sign saying Autocesta.
The word "autoput" was used in the whole Yugoslavia, because in literally means "motorroad/road for motorized traffic only". In Croatia you can still see some old signs showing "autocesta" and "autoput"

And the wrecks were left aside to warn drivers about dangerous overtakings (at least I heard so).
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:35 PM   #1327
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Great video, thank you!

And it was golden-age of Yugoslavia, with peaceful coexistence and stability, prior to mutual hatred, mass murders and destruction.

I have a question: were there "check points" at that time between "region" like Slovenia-Croatia-Serbia-Bosnia?
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:36 PM   #1328
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It looks like 1+1 grade-separeted, paved with concrete slabs and restricted to motorized traffic.
It seems having similar standards to the Autostrada dei Laghi and other early Italian autostrade.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:45 PM   #1329
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Great video, thank you!

And it was golden-age of Yugoslavia, with peaceful coexistence and stability, prior to mutual hatred, mass murders and destruction.

I have a question: were there "check points" at that time between "region" like Slovenia-Croatia-Serbia-Bosnia?
Peaceful coexistence and stability existed only because of the dictatorial communist government than imposed unity with force and by crushing any opposition.
An authoritarian regime is never stable. It may stands up for decades, but when the dictator died or get overthrown, usually chaos and conflicts follow. A democracy, instead, is more stable because it can survive political changes through free and competitive elections.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:51 PM   #1330
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it wasn't communist, but socialist indeed, and by far the freest country of all the "Bloc" which it wasn't even part of - unlike these states, people were free to travel whether they wanted without necessity of being apparatchiks or related to the government. It was "middle way" in fact, a mix of planned and liberal economy. As a matter of fact, many people that lived in that time, are wistful.
Hatred came from another source, btw.

Last edited by John Maynard; February 28th, 2016 at 03:57 PM.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 03:56 PM   #1331
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it wasn't communist, but socialist indeed, and by far the freest country of all the "Bloc" which it wasn't even part of - unlike these states, people were free to travel whether they wanted without necessity of being apparatchiks or related to the government.
Hatred came from another source, btw.
I know, but it was still a single-party state with political police, etc...
Moreover, it was an artificial multi-national country, like the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Soviet Union, ect... and like those, when the central power get weaker, nationalisms prevailed.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 04:05 PM   #1332
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Democracies aren't always stable, though, and wars or conflicts can erupt > look at the conflict in Northern Ireland, Polish-Lithuanian War, Indo-Pakistani War, and many conflicts in Latin America, as an example.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 04:30 PM   #1333
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I have a question: were there "check points" at that time between "region" like Slovenia-Croatia-Serbia-Bosnia?
Of course not. And they weren't regions, they were federated states (with limited autonomy). The whole republic was called FNRJ (Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia), later SFRJ (Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia).
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Old February 28th, 2016, 06:36 PM   #1334
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Originally Posted by John Maynard View Post
Great video, thank you!

And it was golden-age of Yugoslavia, with peaceful coexistence and stability, prior to mutual hatred, mass murders and destruction.

I have a question: were there "check points" at that time between "region" like Slovenia-Croatia-Serbia-Bosnia?
And destroyed cars with dead people lying about everywhere
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Old February 28th, 2016, 07:02 PM   #1335
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Hatred came from another source, btw.
Exactly - just like in Ukraine today.

Mutual hatred? My girlfriend is Croatian, only hates me when I forget her birthday or some dumb anniversary
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Old February 28th, 2016, 08:49 PM   #1336
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Once, a CIA spy said to his MI6 counterpart "Let's talk, buddy. Hope, language will not be a barrier" "Hope so too, mate" - replied Her Majesty Agent. Well, I dare to assume, language is not a problem between you, is it? (rather rhetoric question)
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Old February 28th, 2016, 09:19 PM   #1337
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it wasn't communist, but socialist indeed, and by far the freest country of all the "Bloc" which it wasn't even part of - unlike these states, people were free to travel whether they wanted without necessity of being apparatchiks or related to the government.
It wasn't quite as free as people imagined. From what I remember, one of the more interesting things was in the 80's when you had to deposit a certain amount of dinars at the border if you travelled abroad. You got the money back after a year - but because inflation was running at 30%, you effectively were paying a 30% tax for foreign travel. It didn't last long (from memory, only 1981-1984) - but it shows how it wasn't quite as Third Way as people remember it to be.

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I have a question: were there "check points" at that time between "region" like Slovenia-Croatia-Serbia-Bosnia?
I don't know if it's true, but I've read several reports from journalists that were on the ground in 1991 before the declarations of independence saying that they were frequently having to look over old maps to even get an idea of where the borders might be as there was nothing on the ground.

I've found this old US map that doesn't show the borders between the republics - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/onc/t...322829_f_2.jpg - but I'm still looking for an old Yugoslav map to get an idea as to whether they were marked or not on maps.

But anyway, no, there were no checkpoints between republics because there were no restrictions on moving between them, as well as no restrictions on goods. There might have been some checkpoints established in 1990/early 1991, but that's about it.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 09:39 PM   #1338
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That means it was perfectly Third Way
You could have a normal reasonable country, or a completely screwed up oppressive hellhole
But it was right down the middle
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Old February 28th, 2016, 10:44 PM   #1339
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I've found this old US map that doesn't show the borders between the republics - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/onc/t...322829_f_2.jpg - but I'm still looking for an old Yugoslav map to get an idea as to whether they were marked or not on maps.
Yes, they were. This is an old school map:

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Old February 29th, 2016, 12:34 AM   #1340
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Most maps had inner borders drawn.
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