daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 28th, 2017, 02:56 PM   #1721
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Yes there were. The passport union is not similar to the Schengen Treaty allowing people to cross to border wherever they want. There were checkpoints, but mainly for the customs operations. Later, the Swedish customs office was closed, and the remaining one in Finland was operated by both countries. The checkpoints were located a few hundred meters from the border line. Usually, the checks were random. The people crossing the border have to be able to prove their right to cross the border by some means. About any document goes, but usually opening the mouth is enough.
A belated response, but I am not aware of any substantial changes between before and after Schengen on the N-S border crossings at least. There is still certainly customs - Schengen is about people - and the police /government still has the right to control the border under certain circumstances. Except for ferry or air travel, I have never had to show an ID either before or after Schengen, but I am aware that in short periods such checks have been performed after Schengen during eg the asylum crisis a few years back. At least regarding N-S border, you are free to pass wherever you like by land or sea, though. No border wall here....
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 28th, 2017, 07:40 PM   #1722
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
A belated response, but I am not aware of any substantial changes between before and after Schengen on the N-S border crossings at least. There is still certainly customs - Schengen is about people - and the police /government still has the right to control the border under certain circumstances. Except for ferry or air travel, I have never had to show an ID either before or after Schengen, but I am aware that in short periods such checks have been performed after Schengen during eg the asylum crisis a few years back. At least regarding N-S border, you are free to pass wherever you like by land or sea, though. No border wall here....
Norway, Sweden and Finland had bilateral agreements on the border crossing. The S-N border was quite open, but the Finnish borders were much more restricted. This was substantially changed at the Schengen membership.

For example, walking around the FIN-S-N tripoint was, in theory, illegal, because the FIN-S border was closed. It was, however, legal to walk from Sweden to Finland over Norway. (Later, the border from the tripoint to the village of Keinovuopio got opened to free crossings.)

Last edited by MattiG; October 28th, 2017 at 08:29 PM.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #1723
Highway89
Registered User
 
Highway89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La Rioja (Spain)
Posts: 758
Likes (Received): 1180

Sierra Nevada, Spain, May-June 1982


Sierra Nevada, Spain tour May-June 1982 by Alpines 4u, en Flickr



Sierra Nevada 2750m, Spain tour May-June 1982 by Alpines 4u, en Flickr

Of course, they had to be Dutch

The old observatory of Mojón del Trigo; Sierra Nevada, Spain tour May-June 1982 by Alpines 4u, en Flickr

Check out their Flickr gallery, they also have pictures from Italy (1983), Yugoslavia-Greece (1984 and 1987), Bulgaria (1985) and Corsica-Sardinia (1986): Alpines 4u
__________________
Highway89 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #1724
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Norway, Sweden and Finland had bilateral agreements on the border crossing. The S-N border was quite open, but the Finnish borders were much more restricted. This was substantially changed at the Schengen membership.

For example, walking around the FIN-S-N tripoint was, in theory, illegal, because the FIN-S border was closed. It was, however, legal to walk from Sweden to Finland over Norway. (Later, the border from the tripoint to the village of Keinovuopio got opened to free crossings.)
This is a photo from 1999:



The yellow stone is the border mark 297A at the Finnish-Norwegian border north of Čoahpejávri. The photo was taken in Finland. Until March 2001, passing the stone on the right (north) side was subject to fines. The shortest hiking route to the highest peak in Finland takes a shortcut over Norway for two kilometers, and the border was opened between the marks 296B and 297A in order to reduce bureaucracy.
__________________

Peines, SRC_100 liked this post
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2017, 12:11 AM   #1725
Rado91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Varna
Posts: 393
Likes (Received): 472

https://youtu.be/0du7LoFLfMs

Hey guys, this is a film about buildings of Bulgarian motorways in the late 70s it’s in the communist block and sorry, it’s on Bulgarian language but you can see how our motorways use to look like back in the 70s
__________________

SRC_100 liked this post
Rado91 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2017, 10:50 PM   #1726
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,455
Likes (Received): 2185

Turin (Corso Francia, one of the city's main boulevards) in 1946. The overhead banner says "45 km/h, please".

__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2017, 11:30 PM   #1727
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Norway, Sweden and Finland had bilateral agreements on the border crossing. The S-N border was quite open, but the Finnish borders were much more restricted. This was substantially changed at the Schengen membership.

For example, walking around the FIN-S-N tripoint was, in theory, illegal, because the FIN-S border was closed. It was, however, legal to walk from Sweden to Finland over Norway. (Later, the border from the tripoint to the village of Keinovuopio got opened to free crossings.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
This is a photo from 1999:



The yellow stone is the border mark 297A at the Finnish-Norwegian border north of Čoahpejávri. The photo was taken in Finland. Until March 2001, passing the stone on the right (north) side was subject to fines. The shortest hiking route to the highest peak in Finland takes a shortcut over Norway for two kilometers, and the border was opened between the marks 296B and 297A in order to reduce bureaucracy.
Interesting, I was not aware that such strict regulations existed on the Finnish borders. My first thought was that this must have been a pain in the ass for the nomadic reindeer herding Sami. And indeed, a superficial Wikipedia study revealed that Norway was offered the Finnish Enare district to ease this problem in 1859 (predating the passport union, but the Finnish /Russian border was closed a few years earlier) , an offer which Sweden / Norway refused (?) Apperently this region was not very appreciated back then, shortly after the Kautokeino rebellion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kautokeino_rebellion.
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2017, 09:28 AM   #1728
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Interesting, I was not aware that such strict regulations existed on the Finnish borders. My first thought was that this must have been a pain in the ass for the nomadic reindeer herding Sami. And indeed, a superficial Wikipedia study revealed that Norway was offered the Finnish Enare district to ease this problem in 1859 (predating the passport union, but the Finnish /Russian border was closed a few years earlier) , an offer which Sweden / Norway refused (?) Apperently this region was not very appreciated back then, shortly after the Kautokeino rebellion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kautokeino_rebellion.
The reindeer herding changed a lot after the borders got closed in the 19th century, and the people in Finland lost their nomadic routes to the Arctic Sea. The system in Finland nowadays is based on 56 reindeer herding areas, which are usually separated by fences. There is a reindeer fence of several hundreds kilometers long along the Finnish-Norwegian land border. It does not follow strictly the border line but partly lies on either side.



The people living close to the border had wider rights to cross the border than the other ones.

The border is even nowadays strictly monitored, but the monitoring is more or less invisible. It is the outer perimeter of the EU Customs Area, and the NATO, for instance. And, what is more important, the regulations for snowscooters are more strict in Norway than in Finland. Everyone moving close to the border is under surveillance, and if someone drives to Norway outside the official routes, fines apply.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2017, 04:34 PM   #1729
LM69
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dillingen (Saar) / Strzelce Op.
Posts: 151
Likes (Received): 123

Interesting report by TVP 3 Wroclaw about the "Autostrada A 4" section between Wroclaw and Opole (Gliwice), which was renovated from 1997 to 2001. As you can see, the report is from July 1999. That means you can see actual footage of the progress, which is known to be very rare, because most of the actual footage of the renovation and construction of the A 4 between Wroclaw and Nogowczyce (Strzelce Op.) haven't been released or have been deleted.

__________________

Kpc21, SRC_100, Luki_SL, Kunagi liked this post
LM69 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2017, 05:01 PM   #1730
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The border is even nowadays strictly monitored, but the monitoring is more or less invisible. It is the outer perimeter of the EU Customs Area, and the NATO, for instance. And, what is more important, the regulations for snowscooters are more strict in Norway than in Finland. Everyone moving close to the border is under surveillance, and if someone drives to Norway outside the official routes, fines apply.
That you should follow the laws of the country you are in (eg with regards to snowmobiles) is a no-brainer, also you need to follow special regulations eg if you bring animals or other items subject to import restrictions or customs, but are you sure that there still exist rules regarding where persons could cross? At least the Norwegian laws state that entry is allowed anywhere from a Schengen country, except when temporary border control has been introduced.
Quote:
§14 Grensepassering og grensekontroll

Dersom ikke annet er bestemt, skal inn- og utreise skje over grenseoverganger fastsatt av departementet. Indre Schengengrense kan passeres hvor som helst såfremt det ikke er innført midlertidig grensekontroll. Slik grensekontroll kan bare innføres hvis det foreligger en alvorlig trussel mot offentlig orden eller indre sikkerhet. Tollovgivningen gjelder ved passering av indre Schengengrense. Kongen kan fastsette nærmere regler i forskrift.
The Swedish-Norwegian border is also outer parameter for EU Customs area (Norway on the outside) and NATO (Norway on the inside), but legal point of entry has as far as I know always been "anywhere" in modern times - I have passed the border myself in the wilderness several times, and also by boat.
__________________
Norway needs a new transport infrastructure network, let's start now!
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2017, 05:53 PM   #1731
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
That you should follow the laws of the country you are in (eg with regards to snowmobiles) is a no-brainer, also you need to follow special regulations eg if you bring animals or other items subject to import restrictions or customs, but are you sure that there still exist rules regarding where persons could cross?
I have not written that the border could not be crossed anywhere by anyone. This is the cornerstone of the Schengen agreement. Still, the border is monitored to detect illegal activities. I believe the same applies to the S-N border. Having no regular border controls does not imply that the border would be uncontrolled.

Because Norway is not a part of the EU Customs Area, the right to cross the border anywhere does not apply to those ones carrying goods to declare. Such as more than 1 liter of booze. Those must be carried through the customs office. (The verb "carry" is intended. There are no other roads crossing the N-FIN border than those ones leading to a customs office. Most of the border runs over deserted areas or along rivers.)
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 12:20 AM   #1732
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 155

If you insist on using your alcohol quota on Finlandia or Koskenkorva you are still allowed to bring more wine and beer than you probably would like to carry on your hike, though ;-)


Slightly more on topic, German "tourists" on Rv 50 (later renumbered to E6) south of Trondheim April 1940. They still had quite a lot of snow!
__________________

SRC_100, Autobahn-mann, Kunagi liked this post
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 01:49 AM   #1733
Eulanthe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,228
Likes (Received): 411

Matti, can you tell us more about crossing the Finnish border prior to 2001?

I was under the impression that the Nordic Passport Union had abolished passport checks entirely on internal borders, but retained customs controls - meaning that while FIN-N still required you to pass at an approved point, FIN-S had become completely open once the two countries joined the EU in 1995.
Eulanthe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 12:29 PM   #1734
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulanthe View Post
Matti, can you tell us more about crossing the Finnish border prior to 2001?

I was under the impression that the Nordic Passport Union had abolished passport checks entirely on internal borders, but retained customs controls - meaning that while FIN-N still required you to pass at an approved point, FIN-S had become completely open once the two countries joined the EU in 1995.
As this turns off-topic, I'll answer to your question later in the International Border Crossing thread.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 02:11 PM   #1735
masages21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Melbourne/London/Poznan
Posts: 303
Likes (Received): 51

did Italians drive on the left in the past?


Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Turin (Corso Francia, one of the city's main boulevards) in 1946. The overhead banner says "45 km/h, please".

masages21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 02:25 PM   #1736
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,491
Likes (Received): 2104

Quote:
Originally Posted by masages21 View Post
did Italians drive on the left in the past?
Not in 1946.
Until the 20s every province had its own regulation. I guess Milan was the last one in 1926 to switch to the right-hand side.

In this picture I'm not sure, but I think that the tramway was in the middle of the road: the cars are in the main carriageway, while the other carriageway you can see on the right side is the local one. The two carriageways in the other direction are not visible in this picture and would be on the left.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 04:36 PM   #1737
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 155

Another picture from the Trondheim area in Norway, from Sluppenbrua, on current rv 706:


This temporary wooden bridge was opened in 1942 on orders from the German occupants on piers of 1863 stemming from a railroad bridge. It was replaced in 1954 by an almost identical bridge made of steel on the same 1863 piers. It was also called temporary, but is today still an infamous bottleneck of the area, being one of the few bridges crossing the river that flows through Trondheim (Nidelva). There are plans to replace it within 10 years (and use the old for bikes and pedestrians), but so they have said for decades......
__________________
Norway needs a new transport infrastructure network, let's start now!

8166UY liked this post

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; November 2nd, 2017 at 05:19 PM.
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 05:53 PM   #1738
Galro
Humanity through Urbanity
 
Galro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,354
Likes (Received): 10047

Quote:
Originally Posted by masages21 View Post
did Italians drive on the left in the past?
Maybe I am missing something, but aren't the cars shown to drive on the right in that picture? I'm pretty sure what we are looking at is the front of an old truck.
Galro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 06:06 PM   #1739
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
If you insist on using your alcohol quota on Finlandia or Koskenkorva you are still allowed to bring more wine and beer than you probably would like to carry on your hike, though ;-)
From the experience, I would comment that nobody would carry wine and beer on top of the 20 kg backpack. :-) (One friend of mine even cuts the toothbrush into two, and throws the extra handle away. That saves at least two grams.)

But rules are rules. From picture we can see that four litres wine and two litres of beer are less harmful than an extra centiliter of rhum.

Last edited by MattiG; November 2nd, 2017 at 06:11 PM.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 2nd, 2017, 09:10 PM   #1740
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,801
Likes (Received): 615

Helsinki

A few historical photos from the archives of the Helsinki City Museum, compared to the Google Streetview imagery.



Erottaja bus terminus. 1948



The area still is a bus terminus. 2012



Terminus for the buses to the countryside. 1930



Buses leave nowadays at the basement of the glass house at the background. 2012



Pirkkola was one of the suburban areas built after the WWII, when the population of Helsinki rocketed. 1953



The area is quite similar nowadays, the trees have grown. 2009.



Intersection at the north edge of the inner city, Mannerheimintie/Tukholmankatu. 1950.



It is now one the busiest places during the rush hours. 2014.
__________________
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium