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Old November 6th, 2017, 11:34 AM   #1761
ElviS77
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I can't post pictures, but here's a link with a picture from Verdal in the 50s. They are paving the then new rv 50...

http://verdalsbilder.no/ukensAlb2.ph...ge=1&pid=10316

Here's another link, rv 50 along Mjřsa back in the day. E6 is, of course, a motorway here now.

http://nostalgisiden.blogspot.no/201...angs-mjsa.html

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Old November 6th, 2017, 07:43 PM   #1762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Trans-Canada Highway had unpaved sections until the 1960s.
Highway 20 still has unpaved sections.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie
You can see the sign on the left every socialist republic had sign prior to the territory.
There were no borders between the Yugoslav republics, and no signs as well. One could only notice the entry into an other republic by change of language or change in license plate codes.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #1763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
Highway 20 still has unpaved sections.

There were no borders between the Yugoslav republics, and no signs as well. One could only notice the entry into an other republic by change of language or change in license plate codes.
No "welcome to fabulous Nevada" sign?
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Old November 7th, 2017, 01:34 AM   #1764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palance View Post
Highway 20 still has unpaved sections..
Highway 20, Trans-Canada... this one?

The Prairie provinces situation re: pavement is interesting. As mentioned population density was so very low. But as well, the Prairies always had an excellent trunk railway network to east and west pretty much before the area had been populated, so transport traffic was not large in the major east-west directions. Furthermore the geography is generally rather convenient so major engineering works (that would make asphalt a inexpensive addition) generally were not needed. It's partly why today there are so many pleasing divided highways even with relatively low traffic, since the cost of construction is so low (easy terrain and low population density meaning little need for grade separations to local roads)
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Old November 7th, 2017, 04:07 PM   #1765
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The population of Saskatchewan had reached almost 1 million people by 1931 and fluctuated within a narrow bandwidth since. So the province had the same amount of people when there were almost no paved roads, as there are today.

Saskatchewan has a gigantic road network for its population size. Because it was so rural in the 1930s, they developed a large road network for agricultural purposes, and a quite large amount of it was paved after World War II. However it was paved with only minimal design standards on secondary roads, which is why you see all those weight restrictions in the spring.

In Saskatchewan, there is 228,200 kilometers of roads, of which 29,500 kilometers are paved. This is huge considering the network of roads carrying over 1,000 vehicles per day is very small. There are many primary roads in Saskatchewan that carry only up to 400 vehicles per day.
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Old November 7th, 2017, 06:46 PM   #1766
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Highway 20, Trans-Canada... this one?
No, I meant the road to Bella Coola in BC, but that is no part op the TCH.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 04:09 PM   #1767
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Pre-WWII German signage (modern copy):



German signage from 1912 (real):



Other photos of vintage signs in Germany
http://www.geocities.ws/marcelmonterie_d/
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old November 18th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #1768
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Map of Yugoslavia - circa 1960

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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:17 PM   #1769
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Firstly, thank you for posting this map.

Secondly, it is interesting that the "Autoput" is finished from Ljubljana to Belgrade and from Paraćin to Skopje. In the communism the roads were always built in so called phases, with intention to have as much asphalt road connections as possible in the any given moment.

Thirdly, the Kingdom of Italy paved all roads on its territory before the WWII, the Kras/Charso, Slovenian and Croatian Istra/Istria, Rijeka/Fiume. The Wehrmacht paved the road from Spielfeld/Sentilj via Maribor, Ptuj, Varaždin up to Komin (this is the halfway from Varaždin to Zagreb). The Kingdom of Yugoslavia paved (mostly concrete) Ljubljana-Kranj-Bled, Bregana-Zagreb-Dugo-Selo, Novi Sad-Belgrade, Sušak (near Fiume/Rijeka)-Novi Vinodolski, Trogir-Split and Zaton-Dubrovnik-Cavtat, Niš-Niška Banja, and probably quite a few more.

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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:25 PM   #1770
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So, Tito intended to build the Autostrada, later Autoput of Brotherhood and Unity to connects the four of six republic capitals (Ljubljana, Zagreb, Belgrade and Skopje). Bg-Zg was finished in 1949, although only as half-motorway, without grade-separated exits and only with few, full profile overpasses (one in Zagreb-Žitnjak and the other in Popovača, both still visible today). Building the extensions to Ljubljana and Skopje, the grade-separated intersections and overpasses were added, but only in half-motorway profile, so they all were torn down through the recent conversion into full-profile motorway.

Regarding the transversal connections, which were much harder to build due to the geographical configuration of Yugoslavia, only two were finished at the moment of issuing of above posted map. In Slovenia, the road from Postojna to Maribor, and in Croatia from Komin, through Zagreb and Karlovac to Rijeka, with asphalt connection from Zagreb-Podsused to Kumrovec (Tito's hometown) and from Karlovac to famous Plitvice Lake. One might say that the both Yugoslav states recognized the importance of tourism for the national economy.

Regarding the famous "Jadranska Magistrala", contemporary rumors said that the huge credit from the US was intended to build the Magistrala as full motorway, although Tito build it in highway profile and with the rest of money a lot of unpaved roads in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia were paved and majority of them widened.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #1771
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Italy planned the 2-lanes "Autostrada Pedealpina" in the 1920s, connecting Turin with Fiume via Novara, Milan, Bergamo, Brescia, Verona, Vicenza, Padova, Mestre, and Trieste. Only sections Milan-Bergamo (1927), Bergamo-Brescia (1931), Turin-Milan (1932), and Padova-Mestre (1933) were completed, as Italy stopped all highway constructions around 1935, due to poor economic conditions following the Ethiopian War.
Between 1960 and 1962 these stretches were duplicated, and the missing section Brescia-Padova was built from scratch. In 1962 A4 was completed between Turin and Mestre. The section from Mestre to Trieste (Sistiana) was opened in stages between 1966 and 1972.
It's a pity that they didn't build the section Trieste-Fiume before the war, because now we would have at least a 2-lanes expressway between the two cities, something that now would be more complicated because it would involve 3 countries.
Yugoslavia in the 1950s built the 2-lanes "Brotherhood and Unity Highway" with similar standards of Italian 2-lanes "Autostrade" of the 1920s and 1930s. Yugoslavia's first motorway was Ljubljana-Postojna in 1972 (and it used Italian-style signage).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:48 PM   #1772
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The connection between Zagreb and Split through Croatia was unpaved until early 1970es, the Jadranska Magistrala was reaching Titograd, today Podgorica in the late 1970es I think.

The communist leaders from Slovenia and Croatia wanted to build true motorways in the late 1960es as transversal connections between Maribor and Koper and Zagreb to Rijeka/Split, but were overthrown from power un 1971, with few connections finished in 1972, i.e. Vrhnika-Postojna (later Razdrto) in Slovenia and Kikovica-Oštrovica near Rijeka and Zagreb-Karlovac (all sections signed in Italian style!), with unfinished building site Strmica-Kaldrma (near Knin) on Split direction and tunnel Učka, which was first major road project in Istria after the WWII.

The so-called other republic motorway projects from the 1960es, i.e. Belgrade-Novi Sad and Zenica-Sarajevo were finished as the half motorways in the 1970es (i.e. quite as the old expressway Ljubljana Zagreb) and this became de facto "motorway" standard in the former Yugoslavia up to its dissolution in 1991-92. Of course, the upgrading of the Brotherhood and Unity Highway to the real motorway standard was an exception, because it was financed solely from the loans of EEC, today the EU. Lot of you guys drove thru Istrian Y from the tunnel to Pazin and from Grosuplje to Višnja Gora (the existing part of old expw incorporated into Slovenian A2). This is the very same standard.

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Old November 19th, 2017, 03:57 PM   #1773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
...
It's a pity that they didn't build the section Trieste-Fiume before the war, because now we would have at least a 2-lanes expressway between the two cities, something that now would be more complicated because it would involve 3 countries.
...
I agree and I pity this too, because today we would have the shortest decent road from Venezia to Zagreb. But we both know that Slovenia was against it and this connection is the only Osimo motorway which wasn't build on Slovenian territory. Croatia build its part but directed it to Postojna, not to Kozina.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:08 PM   #1774
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In the 1960es the designers were uncertain about the connection from Ljubljana to Austria (the Ljubelj tunnel existed unfinished). So they build the connection from Kranj to Ljubelj in the old expw standard and it was signed as the Route 1 in Yugoslavia. However, at the Austrian side there was only a common road to Klagenfurt. Later Yugoslavia and Austria decided to build the Karawankentunnel, and the motorway was finally built to Jesenice instead of Tržič.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 05:22 PM   #1775
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I agree and I pity this too, because today we would have the shortest decent road from Venezia to Zagreb. But we both know that Slovenia was against it and this connection is the only Osimo motorway which wasn't build on Slovenian territory. Croatia build its part but directed it to Postojna, not to Kozina.
Italy-Zagreb it's not a problem, the route via Ljubljana is a motorway all the way. The problem is traffic from Italy and Slovenia (and all Western-Central Europe) towards Rijeka and Dalmatia (and further south to MNE, AL and GR).
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 07:05 PM   #1776
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Regarding the famous "Jadranska Magistrala", contemporary rumors said that the huge credit from the US was intended to build the Magistrala as full motorway, although Tito build it in highway profile and with the rest of money a lot of unpaved roads in Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia were paved and majority of them widened.
rumour from Croatian nationalistic parties probably.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #1777
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Tito wanted to connect Austria down to Greece with a full profile highway. Something that will be finished in late 2018 or early 2019 when SRB and MK finally finish their parts.

Unlike the other communist countries, SFRY had tourism and westerners used to go to Jadran with cars and SFRY maintained good road connections specially in the part of today's independent Slovenia and Zagorje but also Dalmatia in CRO. A big proof of this is the old plan to connect SLO with Austria under Karawanke.
SFRY was simply 'open' to the West than any other communist country ever existed.

It is a question if in 1985 you could drive faster from Jesenice to Gevgelija than you can do it in 2017.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #1778
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Is it true that Tito didn't allow Croatia to build the Zagreb-Split motorway because he didn't want to connect different parts of Croatia together because he feared that it would have created a stronger "Croatian nation"?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:38 PM   #1779
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Unlike the other communist countries, SFRY had tourism and westerners used to go to Jadran with cars and SFRY maintained good road connections specially in the part of today's independent Slovenia and Zagorje but also Dalmatia in CRO.
Yugoslavia was significantly more open and free than the Soviet satellite countries behind the "Iron Curtain", that's a fact. However, it was not the only Commie country to receive Western tourists. Hungary was notorious for being a meeting point of East and West Germans at Lake Balaton in the summer holidays.

Here's a 1986 (Summer) video of a town on the southern Balaton shore. It also shows some roads. Numerous Western-made cars and West German license plates can be seen.

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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:54 PM   #1780
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I would not agree with you. People's Republic of Hungary was very isolated country back then. Especially from what it is today, in the 80's it was like some Soviet enclave....
The propaganda was very high there, it was 'anti-West' and generally Westerners were not welcomed nor it was friendly country for them as for the languages and so.

SFRY was different story not just because of the large sea coast it had, but it was a mix of many nations, autonomous provinces and languages so it was like integrating on its own and it had almost no relations with the Soviets.
That's why it had large impact in the West, although still communist it was very respected and there was no Cold War propaganda so a lot of people came here.
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