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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:50 AM   #1781
stickedy
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Is it true that Tito didn't allow Croatia to build the Zagreb-Split motorway because he didn't want to connect different parts of Croatia together because he feared that it would have created a stronger "Croatian nation"?
Yes, the part between Zagreb and Karlovac was built during the so called "Croatian Spring" and the further extension had to be cancelled after the Yugoslav communists regained control over SR Croatia.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #1782
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Yes, the part between Zagreb and Karlovac was built during the so called "Croatian Spring" and the further extension had to be cancelled after the Yugoslav communists regained control over SR Croatia.
Yes, it's true. But keep in mind that Zagreb-Karlovac then wasn't part of Zagreb-Split motorway, as it is today. Zagreb-Karlovac section was part of a motorway towards Rijeka, and the highway/motorway Zagreb-Split was planned to go via Bihać and Knin. Photos of the construction site near Lički Tiškovac and Kaldrma can be found on internet (just google for "Savkin autoput", named after croatian politician Savka Dabčević Kučar):




A had a map of planned motorways in SR Croatia, I'll try to find it and post here. It's clearly visible that a big triangle was planned back then:
1) Zagreb-Split via Bihać and Knin
2) Zagreb-Rijeka (today A1+A6)
3) Rijeka-Split (today A7+A1).

Number 2) and 3) are or will be built, but in the 90s, due to political changes, croatian government decided to slightly change the plan so route 1) was "moved" to the west, and practically it is what today is A1 from Bosiljevo i/c to Sveti Rok. So, for connecting Zagreb and Split, they "used" Zagreb-Bosiljevo section of Zagreb-Rijeka motorway and Sveti Rok-Split section of Rijeka-Split motorway.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #1783
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A Zagreb - Split motorway via BiH would be very inconvenient today.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:36 PM   #1784
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Tito was determined to unite YU and to build inter connections between the republics not to develop one area as that would push for the nationalism which was obviously not escapable a decade after he passed.

For example Jadranska Magistrala started in north Croatia and ends in Skopje, even today we use the same name, but passes through Kosovo and Montenegro up to Dubrovnik and so on....... This is not a highway but it was build because of tourist purposes it was with many grants of cash which was unimaginable for a communist country.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:44 PM   #1785
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Communist Hungary managed to build a whole motorway network. So it's not impossible.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 12:54 PM   #1786
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Savka Dabčević Kučar):
Savka had more private relations with Tito than with what has been describe as the Croatian Spring.
You can clearly see her after the mass protests in '72 in Zagreb. After this meeting things changed instantly.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #1787
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Of course it would be very inconvenient to use a road which crosses border many times...

@Junkie: True, the roads were built to unite, so there are many examples where the route does not follow some usual traffic logic. For example, motorway Zagreb-Beograd follows the Slavonian plain because it was easier to build there and it connects BIH to it, but it would be more logical (with the same distance) to route it from Zagreb to Beograd via Bjelovar, Virovitica, Osijek, Vukovar, Novi Sad, because it would have connected many really big cities, which are today connected to ZG-BG motorway with 3 additional motorways (D10 ZG-Bjelovar, A5 Osijek-Sredanci, A1 Novi Sad-Beograd)...

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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Communist Hungary managed to build a whole motorway network. So it's not impossible.
Yogoslavia had built many high-quality roads:
- full profile motorways Kranj-Ljubljana, Vrhnika (Ljubljana)-Postojna, Zagreb-Slavonski Brod, Zagreb-Karlovac, Sremska Mitrovica-Beograd-Niš, Rijeka-Grobnik, few sections in Macedonia (including expressway Tetovo-Gostivar)
- half-profile motorways, expressways and grade-separated highways (magistrale): the rest of the "Brotherhood and unity highway" which wasn't upgraded, Grobnik (Kikovica)-Oštrovica, Split-Klis, Split, Rijeka and Osijek bypasses, Zagreb-Krapina-Maribor, Sarajevo-Zenica, Rijeka-Cerovlje/Pazin
- hundreds of kilometres of 2-lane highways (magistrale) in whole country, where there previously hadn't been any good roads.

I have probably forgotten to mention many roads from the list, especially in other countries than Croatia, but we get the picture
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Old November 25th, 2017, 03:13 PM   #1788
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I have probably forgotten to mention many roads from the list, especially in other countries than Croatia, but we get the picture
Don't forget the M5 from Sarajevo to Bihac!
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Old November 25th, 2017, 05:57 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
Yes, it's true. But keep in mind that Zagreb-Karlovac then wasn't part of Zagreb-Split motorway, as it is today. Zagreb-Karlovac section was part of a motorway towards Rijeka, and the highway/motorway Zagreb-Split was planned to go via Bihać and Knin.
...
Wrong.
Although there were plans that the motorway from Zagreb to Split went strait ahead south via Pokupsko, Cazin / Kladuša and Bihać farther to Split, this idea was abandoned in the mid-1960es and final plan was made for the shared motorway section Zagreb-Karlovac, further Karlovac-Vrbovsko-Ravna Gora-Grobnik (exactly on today's route) in Rijeka direction and Karlovac-Slunj-Plitvice-Bihać-Knin-Perković in Split direction. I guess that's why Mrs. Savka Dabčević Kučar got the clearance for Zagreb-Karlovac section in the late 1960es.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:08 PM   #1790
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rumour from Croatian nationalistic parties probably.
Wrong.

The Party also forbade to Bosnian authorities to build the full motorway from Zenica to Sarajevo. Instead there was built the semimotorway like the old expresway Ljubljana -Zagreb.

The Party also forbade to Serbian authorities (you probably heard for Mrs. Latinka Perović) to build the full motorway from Belgrade to Novi Sad too. Instead there was built the semimotorway (like the old expressway Ljubljana-Zagreb) too, in the first phase from Batajnica to Inđija as the detour of Batajnica, Nova Pazova, Start Pazova and Inđija. The remnant of this "motorway" is still visible northbound of Inđija, like the Hungarian M19 in Gyor.

Last edited by darko06; November 25th, 2017 at 06:53 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Savka had more private relations with Tito than with what has been describe as the Croatian Spring.
You can clearly see her after the mass protests in '72 in Zagreb.
...
Wrong. Mrs. Dabčević Kučar was ousted from power in December 1971, after the so-called Karađorđevo meeting of Federal Party Central Committee, where the majority of federal apparatchiks backed Tito's idea of moving her, Mr. Miko Tripalo and other Croatian communist leaders from power.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Puležan View Post
...

Yogoslavia had built many high-quality roads:
- full profile motorways Kranj-Ljubljana, Vrhnika (Ljubljana)-Postojna, Zagreb-Slavonski Brod, Zagreb-Karlovac, Sremska Mitrovica-Beograd-Niš, Rijeka-Grobnik, few sections in Macedonia (including expressway Tetovo-Gostivar)
- half-profile motorways, expressways and grade-separated highways (magistrale): the rest of the "Brotherhood and unity highway" which wasn't upgraded, Grobnik (Kikovica)-Oštrovica, Split-Klis, Split, Rijeka and Osijek bypasses, Zagreb-Krapina-Maribor, Sarajevo-Zenica, Rijeka-Cerovlje/Pazin
- hundreds of kilometres of 2-lane highways (magistrale) in whole country, where there previously hadn't been any good roads.

I have probably forgotten to mention many roads from the list, especially in other countries than Croatia, but we get the picture
Motorways Zagreb-Karlovac & Oštrovica-Kikovica in Croatia, Vrhnika-Postojna (later to Razdrto) were alltogether different, because it were built from Croatian and Slovenian budget.

Motorway rebuilding of the elder "expressway" routes of the "Brotherhood and Unity" were financed with the loans of the EEC, therefore they had to be done. However, in Macedonia and in Slovenia between Grosuplje and Višnja Gora, they made the rebuilding in spare manner i.e. the new lane was built in the motorway standard, where the old lane was left as is. I drove in Macedonia several years ago and the quality of those old lanes was horrible.
In Croatia they were forced to rebuild the existing lane because the Croatian part was finished in 1949 / 1957 and was horrible in 1970es and 1980es. However, between Ivanja Reka and Kutina in the time of rebuilding (1977-1980) there were left some short bridges on the north / existing lane unrefurbished because of shortage of funds, i.e. without hard shoulders.

The "expressway" Zagreb - Krapina - "Maribor" was actually ending after Ptuj (Hajdina). The Croats had built their part in 1960es up to 1975, with some overpasses and all grade separated exits. Later were added at-grade crossings because the local authorities wanted to.
The Slovenes build their part in 1979 or 1980 without overpasses and with only two grade separated exits. Therefore there were curious speed limits up to the upgrade to motorway recently. The Slovenian part was initially so badly paved that it was literally torn apart and was refurbished in the mid-1980es.

Split-Klis was never finished as the "expressway", it was actually the death-road because it missed the (third) lane for slow vehicles. The people there was so impatient that they killed themselves and the others when overtaking slow vehicles. The first expressway there was starting to build in the late 1980es and finished in 1997, I think. This is today the east lane of the so called "motorway-similar fast road" Split-Dugopolje.

And finally, the Istrian Y (from Matulji to Lupoglav in 1983, with the extension to Cerovlje in 1989, i.e. in Yugoslavia it didn't reach even Pazin!) may never be compared with similar roads in Macedonia, because similar roads in Macedonia (e.g. Sopotsko-Bitola) possess the (third) lane for slow vehicles in both direction, where the poor iY does not, except that small part before the tunnel at the Quarner side.

Last edited by darko06; November 25th, 2017 at 07:06 PM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:34 PM   #1793
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Wrong. Mrs. Dabčević Kučar was ousted from power in December 1971, after the so-called Karađorđevo meeting of Federal Party Central Committee, where the majority of federal apparatchiks backed Tito's idea of moving her, Mr. Miko Tripalo and other Croatian communist leaders from power.
She was put on the Tito's charm as a test. As you know Tito maintained close relation with her to try to 'convince' her about the actions she done. She was popular in the young.
Apart from this as this thread is not about this discussion but I wonder what would have happened if Tito was alive at least till the 1989. Its hard for me to say if he would have made some agreement with the West and the wars would have been easily escaped.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:44 PM   #1794
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I would not agree with you. People's Republic of Hungary was very isolated country back then. Especially from what it is today, in the 80's it was like some Soviet enclave....
The propaganda was very high there, it was 'anti-West' and generally Westerners were not welcomed nor it was friendly country for them as for the languages and so.
You should stop posting bullshit here.
I lived in Hungary in the 80's. What you write is nonsense.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 06:50 PM   #1795
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The M5 from Sarajevo to Bihać is not near any expressway standards, it is simply a good paved highway, nothing more.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #1796
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She was put on the Tito's charm as a test. As you know Tito maintained close relation with her to try to 'convince' her about the actions she done. She was popular in the young.
Apart from this as this thread is not about this discussion but I wonder what would have happened if Tito was alive at least till the 1989. Its hard for me to say if he would have made some agreement with the West and the wars would have been easily escaped.
It is interesting how the majority of people lived in Yugoslavia in those times bought romantic stories served by the newspapers and/or schooling system. The motorways were one of struggles for power, and nothing more. There were no slightest chance for Tito to live up to 1989, because he was 88 when he died, and it was known that he suffered from diabetes, so please explain how he could manage to execute the authority powers with 97?
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #1797
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I would not agree with you. People's Republic of Hungary was very isolated country back then. Especially from what it is today, in the 80's it was like some Soviet enclave....
The propaganda was very high there, it was 'anti-West' and generally Westerners were not welcomed nor it was friendly country for them as for the languages and so.

Could you stop to write such a bullshits? You have no idea what you talking about. @Corvinus (probably, as Hungarian) lived in HU during communist era so he knows better. You must know that for every goverment of communist country was very important to get western currency as much as possible, e.g. from western turists. So it`s totally bulshit that Westerns people were not welcomed...
Remember, in communist countries of Central Europe (PL, HU, CS) regime were little bit softer than in SU, Albania or Romania. I don`t know how it looked like in Bulgaria. In DDR it was some how between CE countries and SU.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 07:13 PM   #1798
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You should stop posting bullshit here.
I lived in Hungary in the 80's. What you write is nonsense.
In the People's Republic of Hungary the living standard was low compared to SFRY.
Yugoslavs went there to sell snack and dairy products..... And even clothes or whatever... But time changed today you are West compared to most of ex-yu countries.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:37 PM   #1799
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Communist Hungary managed to build a whole motorway network. So it's not impossible.
Communist Hungary had a few motorways radiating out from Budapest, the longest of which went as far as Lake Balaton. There was no "network" to speak of until somewhat later in the 1990s. Hungary was quick to get on with developing their motorway network after the fall of communism though.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 09:54 PM   #1800
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The M5 from Sarajevo to Bihać is not near any expressway standards, it is simply a good paved highway, nothing more.
Yes, never said anything like that. High quality road
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