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Old March 29th, 2008, 01:11 AM   #1161
Mr Peanut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unionstation13 View Post
To start a project like that would be hard though, especially now that Ballard is mayor.

Arenn, you seem to know a lot about what's going on in Carmel. Does the mayor still have ideas for a dense, beautiful, and urban Carmel?
Oh please. I get so tired of hearing people rip on Ballard for the most ridiculous things. Do you really believe that if a different person were in the mayor's office, all the northern suburbs would magically disappear and be replaced by your ideal urban paradise? Market forces created the suburbs, and if those suburbs ever go away it will also be because of market forces. Government doesn't just wave a magic wand and make something like that happen (BTW, something that has never happened anywhere to my knowledge). Windy-street subdivisions getting bulldozed and replaced with traditional urban layout is not something that is likely to happen in our lifetime.

As for Carmel, they are doing some great things up there, but don't go overboard with the praise. Their new downtown is pretty, but every time I've been there, the only other people on the streets were those creepy statues. It reminded me of a theme park. Other than that, they have design guidelines that require strip-mall developers to put the parking lot in back. Big whoop. It's something, but not much. Carmel is still very much a suburb.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 02:06 AM   #1162
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!!!!!!!!

Indiana Square update....
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...3#post19313093
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Old March 29th, 2008, 02:10 AM   #1163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peanut View Post
As for Carmel, they are doing some great things up there, but don't go overboard with the praise. Their new downtown is pretty, but every time I've been there, the only other people on the streets were those creepy statues. It reminded me of a theme park. Other than that, they have design guidelines that require strip-mall developers to put the parking lot in back. Big whoop. It's something, but not much. Carmel is still very much a suburb.
Carmel's credo seems to be: If I can't get there by driving in my SUV without stopping (via roundabouts), it's not worth going. Plus, it all needs to look "nice", which means I'd better not see any weeds, trash, chain-link fencing, pole signs, scantily-clad mannequins or art depicting nudity.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 02:24 AM   #1164
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Oh please. I get so tired of hearing people rip on Ballard for the most ridiculous things. Do you really believe that if a different person were in the mayor's office, all the northern suburbs would magically disappear and be replaced by your ideal urban paradise? Market forces created the suburbs, and if those suburbs ever go away it will also be because of market forces. Government doesn't just wave a magic wand and make something like that happen (BTW, something that has never happened anywhere to my knowledge). Windy-street subdivisions getting bulldozed and replaced with traditional urban layout is not something that is likely to happen in our lifetime.

As for Carmel, they are doing some great things up there, but don't go overboard with the praise. Their new downtown is pretty, but every time I've been there, the only other people on the streets were those creepy statues. It reminded me of a theme park. Other than that, they have design guidelines that require strip-mall developers to put the parking lot in back. Big whoop. It's something, but not much. Carmel is still very much a suburb.
No, I said IDEAS. It has some nice parts and if all the planned projects go through it will really add, but mayors have some to do with it. If a mayor supports high density development then it has a better chance with things like need of tax dollars, etc rather then someone like Ballard, who isn't bad but isn't really great when it comes to urban development.
Those statues do creep me out, like evil people statues.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 05:30 AM   #1165
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Ballard doesn't understand urban development. Fighting for a grass lot, parking lots, and supporting a "china town" gives him very little credibility. This has all been repeated 100,000 times, though.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 06:17 AM   #1166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundermutt View Post
Carmel's credo seems to be: If I can't get there by driving in my SUV without stopping (via roundabouts), it's not worth going. Plus, it all needs to look "nice", which means I'd better not see any weeds, trash, chain-link fencing, pole signs, scantily-clad mannequins or art depicting nudity.
Thundermutt,

Honestly, I don't get why you feel the need to criticize Carmel. They are the only suburb in the area that is moving in the right direction when it comes to urban development. All of the others are at least 10 years behind. You're either being overly critical or just a supporter of the status quo.

The improvements that Carmel is making aren’t just aesthetic. They are beginning to change circulation patterns, the massing of their buildings, the mix of building uses and much more.

Why don't you criticize suburbs that deserve to be criticized like Greenwood or Fishers.

Besides, Carmel rejected that decency ordinance and roundabouts make a lot of sense... We should use more of them in Indy.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 10:16 AM   #1167
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Ballard's plans for NSS

Hi all:

Long time lurker, first time poster. You all may be moved on from the Near Southside discussion, but I was just informed of Ballard's Chinatown idea. Don't get around much anymore.

Umm...Concord CDC had this idea about 6 years ago, and it was for an "international village" thing. I wish there was a building in the neighborhood to lure the Saraga grocery in with. But alas, it looks like liquor stores, VP's and a greenhouse for the foreseeable future.

And if the city could evict Indy Welding Supply, an angel would get its wings. Or something. God, that place is an eyesore and the owner is a sociopath. There, I said it. Somebody had to.

As funny as the cricket idea sounds, I like the outside the ho-hum thinking. The R brand has been so degraded, I was surprised the guy had it in him.

Sadly, I think things will stay just the way they are for a long time as the economy slides into free fall by Q1 next year.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 05:22 PM   #1168
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Some of what Carmel is doing is clearly just aesthetic. The 116th and Guilford development is a strip mall with the parking in the back, for example.

However, there have been quite a bit of changes as well:

- Eliminate combined sewers in Old Town, with new curb/gutter/sidewalks and a nicely landscaped stretch of Range Line Rd.
- Significant densification fo the Main St. corridor
- City Center appears to be more than just a lifestyle center, with a major performing arts component, for example
- Getting control of all city utilities
- Aggressive annexation plan to complete bringing all of Clay Township into the city
- Massive increase in park land (from like 60 acres to 600 acres or something like that), plus building the showplace Central Park
- Clear pedestrian / bike friendly goals through the Monon expansion (including many grade separation), and full sidewalks/paths on both sides of the street that contrary to what some might think are in fact used.
- Major investment in transportation infrastructure, large scale deployment of roundabouts and roundabout interchanges.
- Approval of developments like Gramercy, that, though on hold for the time being, is going to replace 500 units with 2,000.

Even just the aesthetics is a major coup, given the general lack of concern for it in Indiana historically. Having a suburb like Carmel is a huge asset for Indianapolis when comparing against some similar sized competitors cities. Places like Dublin, Ohio are broadly similar, but clearly not as advanced in almost any area you care to name.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 07:28 PM   #1169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennyzen View Post
Hi all:

Long time lurker, first time poster. You all may be moved on from the Near Southside discussion, but I was just informed of Ballard's Chinatown idea. Don't get around much anymore.

Umm...Concord CDC had this idea about 6 years ago, and it was for an "international village" thing. I wish there was a building in the neighborhood to lure the Saraga grocery in with. But alas, it looks like liquor stores, VP's and a greenhouse for the foreseeable future.

And if the city could evict Indy Welding Supply, an angel would get its wings. Or something. God, that place is an eyesore and the owner is a sociopath. There, I said it. Somebody had to.

As funny as the cricket idea sounds, I like the outside the ho-hum thinking. The R brand has been so degraded, I was surprised the guy had it in him.

Sadly, I think things will stay just the way they are for a long time as the economy slides into free fall by Q1 next year.
They should. They have done nothing to contribute to the city of Indianapolis.
I believe the near southside is a very beautiful part of town. One of the few German meeting houses still stands down there(not in the grandest of conditions) and many beautiful historic churches. I think the city should invest into that area of town due its amount of beautiful homes and important areas. Virginia avenue has alot of potential to become a major art scene.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 07:30 PM   #1170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arenn View Post
Some of what Carmel is doing is clearly just aesthetic. The 116th and Guilford development is a strip mall with the parking in the back, for example.

However, there have been quite a bit of changes as well:

- Eliminate combined sewers in Old Town, with new curb/gutter/sidewalks and a nicely landscaped stretch of Range Line Rd.
- Significant densification fo the Main St. corridor
- City Center appears to be more than just a lifestyle center, with a major performing arts component, for example
- Getting control of all city utilities
- Aggressive annexation plan to complete bringing all of Clay Township into the city
- Massive increase in park land (from like 60 acres to 600 acres or something like that), plus building the showplace Central Park
- Clear pedestrian / bike friendly goals through the Monon expansion (including many grade separation), and full sidewalks/paths on both sides of the street that contrary to what some might think are in fact used.
- Major investment in transportation infrastructure, large scale deployment of roundabouts and roundabout interchanges.
- Approval of developments like Gramercy, that, though on hold for the time being, is going to replace 500 units with 2,000.

Even just the aesthetics is a major coup, given the general lack of concern for it in Indiana historically. Having a suburb like Carmel is a huge asset for Indianapolis when comparing against some similar sized competitors cities. Places like Dublin, Ohio are broadly similar, but clearly not as advanced in almost any area you care to name.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 08:34 PM   #1171
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I don't think there's any doubt that Carmel is an asset to greater Indianapolis, but at the end of the day it's still a suburb. If (people) wanted dynamic neighborhoods, walkability, etc they wouldn't be living in a suburb. Of course, Carmel has its strong points like excellent schools, so it's a tradeoff.

Now since Carmel is growing at an impressive clip, they may expand beyond their suburban "base" in a few years. For now, this seems like a matter of having one's cake and eating it too.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 12:25 AM   #1172
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Does anyone happen to know anything about Indy's water situation? I'm just curious about aquifers, capacity, usage trends, etc. I'm interested in the geologic issues as well as the water system itself, but am indecisive about where to start. Anyone care to nudge me in the right direction?
The Star ran a bunch of articles this past summer when dry weather strained the water system. Indy gets water from Eagle Creek and Geist Reservoirs. Veolia Water is the utility that provides Indianapolis with its drinking water.

I would search through the Star's archives. They cite daily capacity in several of those articles. I can't recall the exact number at the moment.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 01:46 AM   #1173
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[QUOTE=NaptownBoy;19327018]I don't think there's any doubt that Carmel is an asset to greater Indianapolis, but at the end of the day it's still a suburb. If (people) wanted dynamic neighborhoods, walkability, etc they wouldn't be living in a suburb. [QUOTE]

Amen.

Do new developments in Carmel employ a fully-connected rectillinear or curvillinear street grid with rear alleys and garages? Or are they laid out within the former rural mile squares? At the end of the day, that's one very significant and defining geospatial difference between "urban" and "suburban".

To the extent that significant redevelopments like Gramercy and City Center (or is that Olde Towne City Centre?) change the idiom, then Carmel will move toward a more urban existence. Before too many more years, it will be built out and landlocked, which will increase redevelopment pressure and urban/suburban density tension.

Look at the fight over Buckingham's redevelopment of the McNamara Florist site in Broad Ripple. Now that Washington Twp. is all but built out, the move toward greater density in desirable areas (i.e. adjacent to the Monon) is on. That developer GETS IT but the entrenched neighbors don't.

Buckingham had the same problem with Gramercy in Carmel, and so will future re-developers up there: as Carmel is built out, demand will result in plans to densify the most-desirable areas. There will increasingly be fights with people who DON'T want to live in a city, which is almost everyone currently in Carmel.

And hoss, I generally agree with arenn that Mayor Brainard and the city council are good leaders with good ideas for Carmel. But when all the bullshit settles, it's still an aspirational suburb largely built on flight from the perceived ills of Indianapolis the same as Golden Hill, North Meridian Street, Crows Nest, Meridian Hills, and Williams Creek were in their day.

Hoss, when it comes down to it, I'm a city-dweller. I like: living among people of all colors, sizes, ages, and styles, having neighbors I can talk to from my seat on the front porch, streetcorner neighborhood shops and eating places (a few of which might be a bit dodgy), sidewalks, noise, traffic, light at night, train whistles, a short commute, and sirens. I'm not interested in: a gas-guzzling luxury SUV, the need to drive long distances to shop in strip malls and lifestyle centers, roundabouts that make up for the lack of carrying capacity inherent in suburban street layout, a green sea of wastefully-watered and well-manicured lawns and soccer fields, and appropriately-dressed mannequins in the shop windows.

One of those last two sentences describes urban life, and one suburban life. Suburban life may be sustainable for the rich, but that doesn't make it a good thing for everyone. I can't change those who disagree, so the next best thing is to poke fun at 'em in the hope that they realize the wastefulness of the suburban lifestyle. Carmel's just the easiest target, but the criticisms apply to most of the suburbs in the doughnut counties.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 02:50 AM   #1174
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Bravo.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 03:22 AM   #1175
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Great post!
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:00 AM   #1176
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Wow just got back from the IBJ. The copy-cat epidimic going on continues. Now a poster named Joe or something is claiming he is being copyed. God IBJ needs to do something about this. Some chic called me a troll. Only slightly lady.
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Old March 30th, 2008, 07:35 AM   #1177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundermutt View Post
And hoss, I generally agree with arenn that Mayor Brainard and the city council are good leaders with good ideas for Carmel. But when all the bullshit settles, it's still an aspirational suburb largely built on flight from the perceived ills of Indianapolis the same as Golden Hill, North Meridian Street, Crows Nest, Meridian Hills, and Williams Creek were in their day.

Hoss, when it comes down to it, I'm a city-dweller. I like: living among people of all colors, sizes, ages, and styles, having neighbors I can talk to from my seat on the front porch, streetcorner neighborhood shops and eating places (a few of which might be a bit dodgy), sidewalks, noise, traffic, light at night, train whistles, a short commute, and sirens. I'm not interested in: a gas-guzzling luxury SUV, the need to drive long distances to shop in strip malls and lifestyle centers, roundabouts that make up for the lack of carrying capacity inherent in suburban street layout, a green sea of wastefully-watered and well-manicured lawns and soccer fields, and appropriately-dressed mannequins in the shop windows.
Thundermutt, Where do you live?
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Old March 30th, 2008, 03:11 PM   #1178
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Wow just got back from the IBJ. The copy-cat epidimic going on continues. Now a poster named Joe or something is claiming he is being copyed. God IBJ needs to do something about this. Some chic called me a troll. Only slightly lady.
Just let it go. The more you let it get to you the more they will post as you. Cory Schouten isn't going to do anything about it
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Old March 30th, 2008, 05:13 PM   #1179
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Just let it go. The more you let it get to you the more they will post as you. Cory Schouten isn't going to do anything about it
I haven't been posting on IBJ. But I'll take your advice.
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Old March 31st, 2008, 12:50 AM   #1180
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Not Carmel. :-)

I have lived within the old city limits for the past 25 years.

Last edited by thundermutt; March 31st, 2008 at 03:27 AM.
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