Manchester Governance and AGMA

[Mcr24]

No need to be so aggresive JRB just because I don't agree with your opinion, It's not being shortsighted just factual, yes the points I raised earlier do relate to me but there will be similar scenarios for thousands of other commuters who also don't work in central Manchester.

In my opinion both Rochdale and Oldham have perfectly good links with town already and more should be spent on areas which have not got good links already, for example the Ashton route is spot on, However the new Metrolink routes from Rochdale, Stockport and Wythenshawe are garbage.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Mcr24

No need to be so aggresive JRB just because I don't agree with your opinion, It's not being shortsighted just factual, yes the points I raised earlier do relate to me but there will be similar scenarios for thousands of other commuters who also don't work in central Manchester.

In my opinion both Rochdale and Oldham have perfectly good links with town already and more should be spent on areas which have not got good links already, for example the Ashton route is spot on, However the new Metrolink routes from Rochdale, Stockport and Wythenshawe are garbage.

Sorry don't agree. Have you ever used Northern Rail? Its a very poor system, using trains from the 1980s which need replacing. This is the very first time I've heard anyone question Metrolink. They also don't have perfectly good transport links. From where I live it takes around 15 minutes to get into town on the tram and I then get the train alot into Bolton. If TPexpress didn't run the new 185s down that line I would likely drive. That's how bad Northern Trains are. The Wythenshawe line is one of the most important of the lot. It links the airport to the rest of the system. It will be worth alot to Manchester.

[jrb]

Originally Posted by Mcr24

No need to be so aggresive JRB just because I don't agree with your opinion, It's not being shortsighted just factual, yes the points I raised earlier do relate to me but there will be similar scenarios for thousands of other commuters who also don't work in central Manchester.

In my opinion both Rochdale and Oldham have perfectly good links with town already and more should be spent on areas which have not got good links already, for example the Ashton route is spot on, However the new Metrolink routes from Rochdale, Stockport and Wythenshawe are garbage.

Welcome Mcr24. I'm not aggresive. I just get so frustrated with the 'me' argument all the time. Why can't people see past their own wallets and purses. Why are those links garbage. Take Stockport to Manchester. It will eventually go from Stockport through Didsbury and Chorlton and on to Manchester city centre. That route alone will take thousands of car journeys off the road. Why piss about along Wilmslow road(probably the most congested route in Europe) and the A6 in your car when you can catch a tram into Manchester. That in turn will free up more road space for public transport, meaning buses will make bettter use of the none bus lanes. Buses won't be stuck at bus stops as long either, (blocking cars) because commuters will pay by oyster cards instead of paying by money. People will also know exactly when their bus, tram and trains are due, so they won't be hanging around either. If public transport was the efficient, reliable and clean, even you might use it.

[Mcr24]

Andy i'm still not convinced, I've been lurking for while and it was just a good guess but your right about the majority on the MEN website they can't of read the info which everybody's received.

[Mcr24]

JRB I'm not totally against public transport and I do use it occasionally and if I worked in town I would use it daily, however my point is that you won't get people using the metrolink if it takes the scenic route and it takes longer than the existing route to work.

The Bury and Altricham lines are direct and very succesfull but I would'nt use the metro from Rochdale to Manchester if it takes twice as long as the existing train service and by looking at the map the metro lines from Wythenshawe and Stockport will take an age to reach town.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Mcr24

JRB I'm not totally against public transport and I do use it occasionally and if I worked in town I would use it daily, however my point is that you won't get people using the metrolink if it takes the scenic route and it takes longer than the existing route to work.

The Bury and Altricham lines are direct and very succesfull but I would'nt use the metro from Rochdale to Manchester if it takes twice as long as the existing train service and by looking at the map the metro lines from Wythenshawe and Stockport will take an age to reach town.

Why not use the existing train route then? If you wanted to get say to Eccles or Alti the easiest route will be the Metrolink or driving. Another route could be taking the train into town and then using the metrolink all on your smart card.

[jrb]

Originally Posted by Mcr24

JRB I'm not totally against public transport and I do use it occasionally and if I worked in town I would use it daily, however my point is that you won't get people using the metrolink if it takes the scenic route and it takes longer than the existing route to work.

The Bury and Altricham lines are direct and very succesfull but I would'nt use the metro from Rochdale to Manchester if it takes twice as long as the existing train service and by looking at the map the metro lines from Wythenshawe and Stockport will take an age to reach town.

No they won't. You know that's a lie.

Mcr24.

Then you have a choice. Struggle from Stockport into Manchester via Kingsway/Wilmslow Road, Kingsway/Upper Brook Street or Wellington Road/Stockport Road for an hour or catch a tram at Stockport, Didsbury, Chorlton and reach the city centre much quicker. (30 minutes max from Stockport)

Have I mentioned the saving on your car related bills. Petrol, MOT, car servicing, tyres. What about stress, pollution, etc.

[heatonparkincakes]

There is no argument against public transport.

The only argument around Tif is the way it is funded.

But like it or not things cost money. Only fresh air and crabs come free.

Unless a big money mountain is found in Boggart Hole Clough, then we will pay through one or another tax. Id prefer if its a tax controlled locally, than by Whitehall.

Even when we complete tif we will merely have what pretty much every other big continental city has. The present proposals are merely the spinal cord to which places like Denton, Middleton, Ramsbottom will be joined on in time.

But you need a back bone first, before you do anything.

As crap as it might be for say Middleton town centre or heywood for example, rejecting tif is merely a vote to ensure for ever that these places remain unconnected. A yes vote is at least a movement to a BRT or tram train or met coming to these places.

By the way the Wyrhenshawe and Rochdale met are so much about connections to Manchester city centre but between the various places on the line eg for airport workers in south manchester.

[jrb]

Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

There is no argument against public transport.

The only argument around Tif is the way it is funded.

But like it or not things cost money. Only fresh air and crabs come free.

Unless a big money mountain is found in Boggart Hole Clough, then we will pay through one or another tax. Id prefer if its a tax contrd locally, than by Whitehall.

Even when we complete tif we will merely have what pretty much every other big continental city has. The present proposals are merely the spinal cord to which places like Denton, Middleton, Ramsbottom will be joined on in time.

But you need a back bone first, before you do anything.

Indeed. Once the main arteries are in place, other artiries will be added over the years. The TIF charge will keep on being reinvested in the city. Eventually all areas will see that investment.

[heatonparkincakes]

Give me a chance to edit my usual shambolic first attempt jrb.

But yeah.Its a very long process infrastructure planning and building in the UK. How long has london waited for Crossrail. When I wrote an article for a local rag about the metrolink extensions, a child born that year would be starting uni this autumn.

When the Pic-Vic tunnel system vanished in the 70's, it took just under 15 years for a cross city link to be built. If tif goes, then Manchester will sit around waiting till say 2025 for any progress.

Without the tif improvements, Manchester wouldnt be passed by beijing or Chicago, but by bucharest and bogota.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

Without the tif improvements, Manchester wouldnt be passed by beijing or Chicago, but by bucharest and bogota.

That is a class quote.

[heatonparkincakes]

By the way this is gettin g abiot off track from vice president Metrolink's original post.

I am a little shocked that some sensible cross party thinking has emerged on this issue. Maybe when it all comes down to it, even the most ardent rightist realise it is a chance to improve the county's infrastructure, aid competitiveness and make it a more eco pleasant place to live.

[jrb]

Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

Give me a chance to edit my usual shambolic first attempt jrb.

But yeah.Its a very long process infrastructure planning and building in the UK. How long has london waited for Crossrail. When I wrote an article for a local rag about the metrolink extensions, a child born that year would be starting uni this autumn.

When the Pic-Vic tunnel system vanished in the 70's, it took just under 15 years for a cross city link to be built. If tif goes, then Manchester will sit around waiting till say 2025 for any progress.

Without the tif improvements, Manchester wouldnt be passed by beijing or Chicago, but by bucharest and bogota.

Don't worry, my posts have been like that for 5 years.

Unfortunately this isn't France, Japan or Germany. It's the London centric UK.(not a pop at London)

The company I work for is an American one. The UK divison has over 20 stores and has a multi-million pound turnover, but all the 'big' decisions are made in America first(signed off with the green ink), hence there only being 20+ stores after 15 years in the UK.

It's the same with our transport. Everything has to go through Central Government. Not anymore it doesn't. Here we have a oppertunity to collect out own investment and invest it in our own public transport as we see fit. No longer will we be tied by the Whitehall Mandarins based in London, who to be honest haven't got a clue about our city and it's needs.

[heatonparkincakes]

Of the precedence is the Manchester Ship Canal, which was funded through bonds raised locally and controlled locally.

Tif is the 21st century version of the Ship Canal, but has more chance of have a much longer impact on the city region.

Devolution in Wales and Scotland has demonstrated that not all decisions need to be conducted by Oxbridge graduates in Whitehall.

Your example is so true but I suspect the future wont be so centralised.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Mcr24

JRB I'm not totally against public transport and I do use it occasionally and if I worked in town I would use it daily, however my point is that you won't get people using the metrolink if it takes the scenic route and it takes longer than the existing route to work.

The Bury and Altricham lines are direct and very succesfull but I would'nt use the metro from Rochdale to Manchester if it takes twice as long as the existing train service and by looking at the map the metro lines from Wythenshawe and Stockport will take an age to reach town.

I think you are labouring under a fundamental misconception Mcr24. The Metrolink to Wythenshawe is not primarily there to allow residents of Wythenshawe to get to the City Centre, but to allow residents of South Manchester to get to the Airport (i.e. airport staff). Ditto with the Rochdale and Oldham lines, they primarily are there to enable commuters to get into those towns, not to get away from them. This is where Metrolink scores over the train. If you take a train to Rochdale, you will still be half a mile from the town centre, and 100 feet up. Oldham is scarcely better and Stockport is worse. Trains function as a web, get onto the train and it takes you to the terminus. Metrolink (at least if the full Phase 3 goes ahead), will be more of a network, get onto a tram, and you can step off anwhere else on the system within 45 minutes.

The other advantage of Metrolink over the train is frequency. The trip may take 10 minutes longer, but if the trams are running every 6 minutes, rather than every half hour, that may still mean that overall journey times are reduced.

[A6 Bypass]

Originally Posted by nerd

I think you are labouring under a fundamental misconception Mcr24. The Metrolink to Wythenshawe is not primarily there to allow residents of Wythenshawe to get to the City Centre, but to allow residents of South Manchester to get to the Airport (i.e. airport staff). Ditto with the Rochdale and Oldham lines, they primarily are there to enable commuters to get into those towns, not to get away from them. This is where Metrolink scores over the train. If you take a train to Rochdale, you will still be half a mile from the town centre, and 100 feet up. Oldham is scarcely better and Stockport is worse. Trains function as a web, get onto the train and it takes you to the terminus. Metrolink (at least if the full Phase 3 goes ahead), will be more of a network, get onto a tram, and you can step off anwhere else on the system within 45 minutes.

The other advantage of Metrolink over the train is frequency. The trip may take 10 minutes longer, but if the trams are running every 6 minutes, rather than every half hour, that may still mean that overall journey times are reduced.

and the Rochdale Oldham line won't touch the town centres unless TIF goes ahead. The original metrolink hinged on taking people to where they wanted to be. It'll be pants unless we get TIF.

As far as the vote's concerned, like the other postings have implied, there's an uphill educational struggle for the pro lobby, especially outside of city. Manchester centre could be the opposite side of the universe for the inhabitants of the mill towns. You should see the look on our staffs' faces when you suggest a Christmas do there!

I can see why Stockport's so cool about the charge. Ok there's a lovely bus station but the M60 bisects the town, no metrolink and nothing that looks like solving the suspended animation that is the A6 south of Stockport (eg my namesake).

Don't get me wrong - I'm really in favour of TIF but unless there's some really effective education done pepole will not look beyond their own concenrs.

[heatonparkincakes]

The referendum question should be thus

1. Are you in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvements

Yes or No

2. If you are in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvement, then do you believe it should be paid for by:

a. A Congestion Charge
b. A supplement to the council tax

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

The referendum question should be thus

1. Are you in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvements

Yes or No

2. If you are in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvement, then do you believe it should be paid for by a:

a. A Congestion Charge
b. A supplement to the council tax

Question 2 can't be asked. Part B isn't in the plan.

[jets9]

Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes

The referendum question should be thus

1. Are you in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvements

Yes or No

2. If you are in favour of Tif's plan of transport improvement, then do you believe it should be paid for by:

a. A Congestion Charge
b. A supplement to the council tax

THE QUESTION?
How about

1. Are you in favour of a new taxation system (never ending)

Yes or No

2. Are you in favour of the eventual introduction of satellite tracking of all vehicle movements in Greater Manchester.

Yes or No


That should do it. Easy Peasey. That'll get the expected 60/40 vote split approval. No Probs



ps Oh by the way. When the politicians fuck up you'll be carrying the hundreds of millions of pounds overspend liablity on your council tax bill (on top of the 1.2 bill loan) Yes or No

[Cherguevara]

Can I suggest that congestion charging posts stay within one of the many congestion charging threads?

The MAA is an important government development, and has nothing to do with TIF.