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Old October 7th, 2014, 12:39 AM   #2141
AlexNL
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It's both.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 05:28 PM   #2142
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I'm quite surprised that the NS unions aren't going on strike for this? I know that should a system like this be set up in Belgium, there'd be unions on the tracks blocking the trains for at least a week.

Though I presume that a union can be called to court in the Netherlands?
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Old October 7th, 2014, 05:42 PM   #2143
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As far as I know unions can indeed be held accountable in court. Furthermore, if there would have been no decentralisation those railway lines would have probably been closed by now as they are not interesting to NS.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #2144
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There are several similar successful cases in Europe. Some see it as a loss of workers' rights, other as a way to rebalance excess political protections gained through the monopoly (I stick with the latter).

Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...

This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.

What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?
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Old October 7th, 2014, 06:58 PM   #2145
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The responsibility is that passengers who paid a fare should be moving to where they need to be. Those people waiting weren't paying passengers yet.

This is the same rule NS uses as an excuse to transport you on your feet over hundreds of kilometers: "Your ticket buys transportation, not a seat." I've literally received that sentence in an e-mail reply after I complained once.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 07:12 PM   #2146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glodenox View Post
I'm quite surprised that the NS unions aren't going on strike for this? I know that should a system like this be set up in Belgium, there'd be unions on the tracks blocking the trains for at least a week.

Though I presume that a union can be called to court in the Netherlands?
NS didn't even participate in the tender, why is this relevant? And the union(s) have members from every company.

Last edited by Kirov88; October 7th, 2014 at 07:17 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 07:17 PM   #2147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
The responsibility is that passengers who paid a fare should be moving to where they need to be. Those people waiting weren't paying passengers yet.

This is the same rule NS uses as an excuse to transport you on your feet over hundreds of kilometers: "Your ticket buys transportation, not a seat." I've literally received that sentence in an e-mail reply after I complained once.
hundreds of kilometers.... the Netherlands aint that big...
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Old October 7th, 2014, 07:19 PM   #2148
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Well, they would if they could.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 07:24 PM   #2149
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It's only during rush hour that you have to stand. In other countries you wouldn't blink at standing, as a 50km sub-urban line wouldn't be weird.
In the Netherlands 50km is reagarded as long distance/intercity travel, it's just a mather of scope.
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Old October 7th, 2014, 11:47 PM   #2150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
There are several similar successful cases in Europe. Some see it as a loss of workers' rights, other as a way to rebalance excess political protections gained through the monopoly (I stick with the latter).

Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...

This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.

What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?
The operators have delivered what they promised, all the scheduled busses have been in service. If there is extra demand due to an event, no extra busses have to go in service.
I don't think that operators can be held responsible for event related demand, because I can organize an event which could overflow the busline. One bus can carry around 80 people, less then 3 school classes. So if I take 3 classes to the museum by bus, people must wait for the next bus. The bus operator can't know about my plans. Only if there is a structural rise in demand extra busses can be demanded.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #2151
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Will more lines be put to tender to concessionaires, like Kempen-Zwolle, and maybe Emmen-Zwolle?
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #2152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...
OV-chipkaart messages can be quite confusing from time to time, indeed. Once upon a time, when the project started, all operators had similar equipment which showed similar messages. Over time, more operators onboarded onto the OV-chipkaart system, often forced by the transport authorities and Dutch laws. As more companies onboarded, they brought their own hardware with them which was different from what was already being used elsewhere. Take a look at these lists to see what I mean.

Personally, I don't think it's relevant to show to a passenger that the system withheld € 4,00 from the balance when checking in as the remaining funds will be refunded at the end of the journey.

Showing "You have checked in, welcome aboard!" should be enough when entering the vehicle. Upon leaving, a message like "Your journey cost € 1,39, your remaining balance is € 13,37. Goodbye!" would be adequate.

Quote:
This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.
You are right... if the buses are allowed to go faster than 80 km/h, Dutch regulations forbid passengers standing in the bus.
Quote:
What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?
Bus services are paid for by two parties:
1- Local/regional governments that pay a subsidy to the operator to compensate for losses
2- Passengers on board of the bus

People waiting at a bus stop have not yet paid for their journey, they do so when checking in and out with their OV-chipkaart.

In the case of an event, the event organizer has to contact the public transport authority to tell them about the event that is to take place. What the transport authority needs to know is when the event will be (morning, evening, multi day, ...), how big the event will be and how many people are expected to take public transport.

Some events are very public transport oriented, think of large festivals. In that case, an operator will need to schedule extra buses (possibly even getting them from other areas in the country) and plan for extra bus drivers. These need to be available throughout the day as festival goers do not always leave at the same time.

For other events such as a football match, there is a peak load shortly after the match during which the operator will require lots of buses, but only for two or three trips between the stadium and, for example, city centre and the railway station.

Then lastly there are smaller events. The reveal of a new sculture in the garden of the Kröller-Möller museum may be a big thing for the museum, but it will attract only little extra people. Most of them will probably come by car anyway, so there won't be a real reason to run extra buses. Should it really be necessary (for example, because the museum has struck a deal with NS to give free train travel on the day of the reveal) then even a few extra buses in the few hours before will suffice.

All in all, it's down to the event organizer to supply the right information.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:27 AM   #2153
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Quote:
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Will more lines be put to tender to concessionaires, like Kempen-Zwolle, and maybe Emmen-Zwolle?
Emmen - Zwolle has already been put out to tender, it's the Vechtdallijnen nowadays.

Zwolle - Kampen (over the diesel line, not the new Hanzelijn) will be put out to tender when electrification is complete. This will be put out to tender alongside Enschede - Almelo - Zwolle, which will also be fully electrified.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:36 AM   #2154
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Emmen - Zwolle has already been put out to tender, it's the Vechtdallijnen nowadays.

Zwolle - Kampen (over the diesel line, not the new Hanzelijn) will be put out to tender when electrification is complete. This will be put out to tender alongside Enschede - Almelo - Zwolle, which will also be fully electrified.
Sorry, I meant Enschede-Zwolle, not Emmen-Zwolle.

Who's operating services between Marienberg and Hengelo these days?
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:40 AM   #2155
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Who's operating services between Marienberg and Hengelo these days?
Mariënberg - Almelo is operated by Arriva as part of the Vechtdallijnen concession. If you want to continue to Hengelo you'll have to change onto an NS operated train at Almelo.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #2156
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NS didn't even participate in the tender, why is this relevant? And the union(s) have members from every company.
My question isn't specific to this tender really. My main question was the legal status of a union in the Netherlands, which has now been clarified by AlexNL (thanks for that, by the way!).
It only just dawned on me that the unions in the Netherlands didn't really protest against the whole tendering system, which seems odd to me as I'm used to the "trigger-happy" rail unions in Belgium.

But anyway, there's no need to continue about this subject in here. There are plenty of more interesting things to talk about
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Old October 8th, 2014, 01:07 AM   #2157
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Dutch unions are less trigger-happy than their Belgian or French counter parts. The Dutch approach, the "poldermodel", is to have discussions and come to terms that are reasonably agreeable for all parties involved. The amount of strikes in the Netherlands is quite low, overall.

There has been plenty of protest from the unions against liberalisation, don't be mistaken about that. The unions have been up in arms about the seperation between NS and ProRail and regularely hint at a re-unification, even suggesting forms that are not legally possible (one unified company). The unions have sort-of accepted the as-is situation as they realize that they're not in the position to change it. However, when something goes wrong on a privately owned line they use this for their own benefit to the fullest.

For example, when Veolia just started operating the railway lines in Limburg the amount of SPADs* increased slightly. The unions said that "the liberalisation made the railways unsafe and that we fear the moment when an accident happens". Veolia acted swiftly on this and the amount of SPADs was reduced dramatically (below the country average), but the unions kept quiet about this.


* Signal passed at danger
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Old October 8th, 2014, 01:44 AM   #2158
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As far as I know unions can indeed be held accountable in court. Furthermore, if there would have been no decentralisation those railway lines would have probably been closed by now as they are not interesting to NS.
A common misconception. NS (almost, I'm not aware of cases more than 50 years ago) never does intend to close down a single line. It was the government that asked the NS to bring a list with least profitable lines so they could shut one down if they would want to pay less. A few decades ago the government wanted to close many of the Northern lines, but the NS didn't.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:17 AM   #2159
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You are absolutely right, NS was not planning to give up on those railway lines. They tried various things to keep the trains running by looking for ways to reduce operating costs on those lines as much as they possibly could. For example, the "Wadloper" rolling stock (DH1/DH2) was designed for one-man operation, frequencies were quite low (1 tph) and the staff could perform multiple jobs.

However, that was before the "verzelfstandiging" of NS. If the private operators would have never entered the market, I think that most of the rural railway lines that are now run by Arriva and the likes would have been closed and replaced by buses.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:24 AM   #2160
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What was the last line closure for regular passenger service? The line to IJmuiden? KErkrade-Schin op Geul?
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