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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:32 AM   #2161
Wilhem275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
In the case of an event, the event organizer has to contact the public transport authority to tell them about the event that is to take place. What the transport authority needs to know is when the event will be (morning, evening, multi day, ...), how big the event will be and how many people are expected to take public transport.
...
All in all, it's down to the event organizer to supply the right information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by verfmeer View Post
I don't think that operators can be held responsible for event related demand, because I can organize an event which could overflow the busline. One bus can carry around 80 people, less then 3 school classes. So if I take 3 classes to the museum by bus, people must wait for the next bus.
This is technically correct except for the fact that, for a large number of stops, the service agreed with the authority was not provided at all; people were stranded, and not for their fault (they didn't even take part to the event). From their point of view, the transport service simply wasn't provided for a couple of hours, with no prior warning nor alternative solution.

I was wrong saying that the fault is all of the operator: here the whole system failed to perform as a public service.
Yes, the organizer should have warned operators in the area (or the authority); but I think that for operators and autorities keeping aware of bigger, publicized events should be a standard.
Even for their own sake: because a bus full of paying customers is generating revenue (I hope...) and because the situation generated a delay which messed up the vehicle's schedule.

Btw, many passengers were already standing, that's why I say that 4-5 more wouldn't have changed the safety conditions, we were not packed

This is a kind of extreme situation where the downsides of the privatized transports are more exposed. I'm not a fan of subsidies and centralized solutions, but we can't simply hide behind "No fare* = No rights", or the concept itself of public transport is gone.

*it's a terrible loop: if they don't stop, I'll never be able to pay, but if I don't pay I'm not granted they'll stop...
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Old October 8th, 2014, 11:51 AM   #2162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What was the last line closure for regular passenger service? The line to IJmuiden? KErkrade-Schin op Geul?
Depends on the definition.
You can say the Hofpleinlein or Zoetermeer Stadslijn as a rail service, but there sort of still there as lightrail/metro.

As in real closure I should say the line to Ijmuiden.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:07 PM   #2163
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What was the last line closure for regular passenger service? The line to IJmuiden? KErkrade-Schin op Geul?
Boxtel - Veghel in 2005 according to wikipedia. There are three newer cases but those got replaced by a new line, a light rail and a metro.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 12:38 PM   #2164
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Boxtel-Veghel last passenger service was in the 50's.
The last line to close seeing regular service was the Ijmuiden Line, Lovers Rail tried to make it work until 1998, after which it was closed.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 01:23 PM   #2165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
This is technically correct except for the fact that, for a large number of stops, the service agreed with the authority was not provided at all; people were stranded, and not for their fault (they didn't even take part to the event). From their point of view, the transport service simply wasn't provided for a couple of hours, with no prior warning nor alternative solution.

I was wrong saying that the fault is all of the operator: here the whole system failed to perform as a public service.
Yes, the organizer should have warned operators in the area (or the authority); but I think that for operators and autorities keeping aware of bigger, publicized events should be a standard.
Even for their own sake: because a bus full of paying customers is generating revenue (I hope...) and because the situation generated a delay which messed up the vehicle's schedule.

Btw, many passengers were already standing, that's why I say that 4-5 more wouldn't have changed the safety conditions, we were not packed

This is a kind of extreme situation where the downsides of the privatized transports are more exposed. I'm not a fan of subsidies and centralized solutions, but we can't simply hide behind "No fare* = No rights", or the concept itself of public transport is gone.

*it's a terrible loop: if they don't stop, I'll never be able to pay, but if I don't pay I'm not granted they'll stop...
I think our cases are the same. In both cases there was an increase of demand from one stop, causing the busses to overflow and skip the next stops until people leave the bus. Yet everybody understands that in my case, the operator can't be held accountable for the lack of service, since they couldn't know about the event.

For some events, the mayor need to give permission for the event to take place. In such cases, the authorities know about it and could ask the organizer of the event to pay for extra busses. In those cases, you could hold the operator and the authorities responsible. But I could imagine that this event didn't need a permit. Visitors needed to make reservations before the start of the event, and it was all on private property. And I don't know how much they advertised the event, but it is impossible to search the entire internet looking for events.

There is also one major flaw in your argumentation. Bus operators won't make money if they schedule extra busses. Even a full buss wouldn't make a profit in most cases. The cost for the busses are simply too high, especially on sundays when drivers are paid 30% extra. They might even have to hire extra personel, if it doesn't fit in the schedule. Hiring temporary drivers costs even more then normally, so if you combine this it simply won't be profitable.

If you combine this, I understand why they didn't increase the amount of busses there, it wasn't legally required and it wouldn't been profitable. That the people of Noordwijk had to wait for the next bus is sad, but not something that should be changed.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:33 PM   #2166
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if the buses are allowed to go faster than 80 km/h, Dutch regulations forbid passengers standing in the bus.
What about routes like the 300 from Haarlem to Amsterdam Bijlmer? That must surely be allowed to go at 100 km/h as it uses the motorway. A route with such high frequency must surely be allowed to have standing passengers?
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Old October 8th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #2167
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What about routes like the 300 from Haarlem to Amsterdam Bijlmer? That must surely be allowed to go at 100 km/h as it uses the motorway. A route with such high frequency must surely be allowed to have standing passengers?
That bus has a trailer extension. I don't think they'd allow that one to go any faster for safety reasons...
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Old October 8th, 2014, 03:13 PM   #2168
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Abellio have picked up another UK rail franchise, this time Scotrail. Now some people are complaining that the profits they will get will go into improving Dutch rail services rather than Scottish/British ones.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 03:16 PM   #2169
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We can only hope.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 03:19 PM   #2170
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Same with Arriva then. But Brits are not trusted to run a reliable public transport service, so if others will run it, at least you get good value for money.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 03:36 PM   #2171
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Hmm the main discussion in the Netherlands is based the other way round. Blablabla everytime a leave drops in scotland the trains will stop, just like in Holland... blablablabla
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Old October 8th, 2014, 04:46 PM   #2172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post

What about routes like the 300 from Haarlem to Amsterdam Bijlmer? That must surely be allowed to go at 100 km/h as it uses the motorway. A route with such high frequency must surely be allowed to have standing passengers?
If it goes 100 km/h standing passengers are not allowed, no exceptions.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 05:14 PM   #2173
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Standing passengers are allowed on the 300. So it either goes no faster than 80 or it's breaking the rules.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 05:41 PM   #2174
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Plus the fact that the 300 route is run by articulated busses...
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Old October 8th, 2014, 05:43 PM   #2175
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I think it's maxed at 80. Most of the route is on seperate buslanes (zuidtangent), it only uses the motorway for 4 kilometers. It would only save 30 seconds at most if the bus drives 100, which isn't worth the lower capacity of only seated passengers.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 09:44 PM   #2176
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Zuidtangent should be converted into a light rail line.
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Old October 8th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #2177
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Why
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Old October 9th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #2178
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I was expecting that

Anyway, usually articulated buses are limited to 70-80. I know in Germany a top speed of 60 is the legal minimum to enter the Autobahn, I don't know for NL but I'm pretty confident it's not 100.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 01:11 AM   #2179
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There is no minimum speed requirement for Dutch roads or highways. However, if you are blocking traffic due to an excessively low speed you can be fined by the authorities.
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Old October 9th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #2180
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http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/T100-bus

says

"Voor deze afwijkende maximumsnelheid gelden een aantal voorwaarden zoals: geen staanplaatsen, autogordels op alle zitplaatsen, snelheid begrensd op 100 km/h. Het openbaar vervoer voldoet niet altijd aan deze voorwaarden."

"For these exceptional speed limits a number of conditions apply: no standing, seat belts at all seats, speed limited at 100 km/h. The public transport does not always satisfy these conditions."

The 300 doesn't have seat belts and does have standing so it sounds like 80 km/h should be the limit. Although maybe "Het openbaar vervoer voldoet niet altijd aan deze voorwaarden" means they can get around this rule on the 300? I usually sit near the driver on the 300 so I can see the speedometer and I'm sure the speed was nearer 100 than 80 on the motorway. I'll have to check next time I'm on it. Do buses other than T100 buses have speed limiters set at 80 km/h? I remember in the old days a red light would appear on the speedometer if the bus driver was speeding.
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