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Old October 24th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #2221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
As it currently stands, there will be more trains between Amsterdam and Eindhoven, bringing the total up to 6 tph. Two of them will continue to Venlo.
4tph via Utrecht + 2tph via Rotterdam/Breda (HSL)?
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Old October 24th, 2014, 06:09 PM   #2222
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No I suppose:

Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Venlo
The Hague-Rotterdam-HSL-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven (Formarly IC The Hague-Venlo)
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Heerlen
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Maastricht
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Old October 24th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #2223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
No I suppose:

Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Venlo
The Hague-Rotterdam-HSL-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven (Formarly IC The Hague-Venlo)
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Heerlen
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Maastricht
Correct.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 11:07 PM   #2224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Correct.
But currently there are

2tph to Venlo
2tph to Maastricht
2tph to Heelren

If you add to that trains that will go just till Eindhoven, then which of the others will stop being a place with 2tph? Will they restart splitting trains to Limburg again in Sittard?
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Old October 24th, 2014, 11:29 PM   #2225
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No, currently the trains from Amsterdam all go to Sittard, where 2tph go to Heerlen and 2tph go to Maastricht. In the future 2 extra trains per hour from Amsterdam will be added, which will be directed to Venlo. Because 4 tph is to much for Venlo, the Den Haag-Venlo train will be shortened to Eindhoven. So no splitting in Sittard is needed.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #2226
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The current rolling stock on the IC Den Haag - Venlo is a mixture of ICM (Koploper), DDZ and ICR (coaches). Given the plan to re-route that IC over the high speed line, only the ICRm coaches can be used as they can be hauled by a Traxx locomotive. The ICRm coaches are needed for all services that operate over the HSL (Amsterdam - Breda and Amsterdam - Rotterdam), and also for international services to Brussels.

There are not enough ICRm coaches available to keep the IC from The Hague running to Venlo, so it will be shortened to Eindhoven. There are relatively few passengers coming from either The Hague or Venlo that travel further than Eindhoven on the same train, so I think a split is justifiable.

Passengers from Venlo get direct trains to Den Bosch and Utrecht in return, so they're not really losing out on 'connections to big cities' (as some politicians like to say when their town loses a IC), they're just being connected to different cities.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 02:01 AM   #2227
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Will the trains between Eindhoven and Sittard be on a 20/10 interval?
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Old October 25th, 2014, 02:17 AM   #2228
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So the new configuration of ICs calling in Eindhoven will be during daytime weekdays:

2tph Den Haag - Eindhoven via HSL and vv.
2tph Amsterrdam - Venlo via Utrecht and vv.
2tph Amsterdam - Maastricht and vv.
2tph Amsterdam - Heerlen and vv.

totaling 16 ICs calling in Eindhoven per hour.


PS: They could extend Amsterdam-Breda trains to Tilburg.

Is that correct?
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Old October 25th, 2014, 03:47 AM   #2229
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Extending the Amsterdam - Breda service to Tilburg will require at least 1 additional rake of coaches and a locomotive, I don't know if those are available.

It looks like there are plans to intensify Breda - Tilburg connections to 6 ICs per hour + 4 sprinter trains. What I am most worried about is level crossings between these cities. With 10 trains per hour per direction, those crossings will see a significant amount in closure time.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 06:04 AM   #2230
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Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg? Faster connection to Schiphol, maybe, but not that faster to Amsterdam... (and not counting the new A'dam - Eindhoven ICs).

Why can't I find the Amsterdam - Breda anywhere in the Reisplanner? The site says they are selling it, then no timetable...


Anyway, if I'm getting it correctlythe Amsterdam - Breda and Den Haag - Brussel will share a similar fleet, able to use the HSL; maybe not the same batch of ICm coaches (internal vs. Benelux setup?).

Is this going to happen just as soon as the 186s will be ready?

Any plans to get new 200+ km/h stock (like ICx) for these services?

PS: since all this is linked to the new Amsterdam - Venlo IC, probably the culprit here is the rebuilding of Utrecht's trackplan. Horizon 2017?
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Old October 25th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #2231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg? Faster connection to Schiphol, maybe, but not that faster to Amsterdam... (and not counting the new A'dam - Eindhoven ICs).

Why can't I find the Amsterdam - Breda anywhere in the Reisplanner? The site says they are selling it, then no timetable...
NS considers the Amsterdam - Breda service a high speed train, which is not shown by default. When planning a journey, you'll have to make sure the "Toon hogesnelheidstreinen" / "Show high speed trains" checkbox is ticked.
Quote:
Anyway, if I'm getting it correctlythe Amsterdam - Breda and Den Haag - Brussel will share a similar fleet, able to use the HSL; maybe not the same batch of ICm coaches (internal vs. Benelux setup?).
You are right, they'll have the same ICRm coaches. The international fleet will be identical to the domestic coaches, altho I'm not sure about train length.
Quote:
Is this going to happen just as soon as the 186s will be ready?
And when enough ICRm rolling stock is available. Over the course of 2015 we will gradually start to see more Amsterdam - Rotterdam services, but the biggest change will likely happen with the december 2016 timetable change.
Quote:
Any plans to get new 200+ km/h stock (like ICx) for these services?
For domestic services: yes. NS has started a tender procedure to acquire new intercity rolling stock, dubbed the IC Next Generation (ICNG). The trains will have a top speed of 200 km/h.

For international services no new rolling stock is being ordered, but one of the possible options for ICNG is a Belgium capable version. (Another option is Germany!)
Quote:
PS: since all this is linked to the new Amsterdam - Venlo IC, probably the culprit here is the rebuilding of Utrecht's trackplan. Horizon 2017?
The track plan at Utrecht might play a role, but it won't be a big one. If needed they could always start a new service Eindhoven - Venlo which gets extended to Amsterdam when infrastructure is ready.

The main culprit right now is rolling stock availability: the coaches need to undergo some technical changes before they can be used over the high speed line, and NS is overhauling the interior.. As we're talking about more than hundred coaches this takes time.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 02:55 PM   #2232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg?
Needed or not, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Tilburg station has little or no capacity for the ICd to wait, change the locomotive from one side to the other and go back to Amsterdam. Breda has plenty.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 02:57 PM   #2233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Extending the Amsterdam - Breda service to Tilburg will require at least 1 additional rake of coaches and a locomotive, I don't know if those are available.

It looks like there are plans to intensify Breda - Tilburg connections to 6 ICs per hour + 4 sprinter trains. What I am most worried about is level crossings between these cities. With 10 trains per hour per direction, those crossings will see a significant amount in closure time.
Ten trains per direction per hour. Wow, pretty ambitious.

I guess they will need to get rid of freight trains first to make this happen. And wait until Breda Centraal is finished or at least has more than 3,5 tracks available.
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Old October 25th, 2014, 06:22 PM   #2234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB1981 View Post
Needed or not, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Tilburg station has little or no capacity for the ICd to wait, change the locomotive from one side to the other and go back to Amsterdam. Breda has plenty.
In Tilburg a new platform is currently under construction, this will bring some more space. That doesn't mean that the ICd will continue to Tilburg tho, given rolling stock requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB1981 View Post
Ten trains per direction per hour. Wow, pretty ambitious.
There are bits of the Programma Hoogfrequent Spoor (PHS) where even more trains will run, 6 IC + 6 sprinter trains are planned.
Quote:
I guess they will need to get rid of freight trains first to make this happen. And wait until Breda Centraal is finished or at least has more than 3,5 tracks available.
Freight trains are encouraged to move to the dedicated Betuweroute freight line, this is mostly interesting for trains from the Rotterdam harbour towards Germany. Freight trains coming from Roosendaal and heading towards Venlo are most likely to keep using the Brabantroute as this is quicker.

The situation in Breda is only temporary, I expect all platforms to be in service again within a year.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 12:46 AM   #2235
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Are people happy about the conversions to light rail of the Zoetermeer local service and the Rotterdam Hofplein to Den Haag line, or do people wish they were still run by NS?
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Old October 26th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #2236
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From the info I collected, I would say the operation is considered a strong success. It was win-win for every stakeholder: they are basically getting more frequent and better connected services with less operational costs, while the previous situation (especially in Zoetermeer) was never free from flaws.

Rotterdam lost a couple of marginally important stops (Hofplein itself was not well connected) while got a much better connection through the city center. Those areas, anyway, have a quick tram connection with other stations on line E.

More people is using those lines today than ever before, so it's appreciated.

There is still space for some improvements, mainly in frequency (Line E runs only every 15', 10 could be better) and in capacity, for example using two trams instead of one.
In rush hour I've seen them pretty packed inside DH (from Central Station towards the south/western suburbs), I don't know if it happens also between the city and Zoetermeer.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 01:22 AM   #2237
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In december 2013, OV-magazine published an article named 'Randstadrail is sexy public transport', quoting some figures:

- On the Zoetermeer lijn, ridership has almost doubled since taking over from NS. Before RandstadRail there were about 50,000 users/day, that has risen to 90,000.
- The ZoRo-buses that link Zoetermeer and Rodenrijs have reached the target of a daily ridership of 4,000 passengers two and a half years early.
- On the Hofpleinlijn, RandstadRail has become a victim of its own success: RET CEO Pedro Peters admits that they sometimes have to leave passengers behind.

Since the introduction of RandstadRail the frequencies have gone up significantly, as well as the destinations served. The RET operated metro runs once every 10 minutes (during rush hour, slightly lower frequencies off-peak and during holidays) and run directly into the Rotterdam city centre.

The HTM operated RandstadRail lines go directly towards the city centre of The Hague, reducing the amount of transfers and travel time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
There is still space for some improvements, mainly in frequency (Line E runs only every 15', 10 could be better) and in capacity, for example using two trams instead of one.
During rush hour line E runs every 10 minutes during rush hour (except holidays). I usually see double compositions during rush hour, even at the end of evening peak (leaving The Hague at 18:30) but I don't know what compositions are used during non-peak times.

Increasing the frequency to 10' would be better, but I'm betting off-peak ridership is not yet high enough to justify the additional personnel expenses required for this kind of operation. As the RandstadRail network uses dedicated tracks that are not shared with other operators, I don't expect HTM and RET have to pay track access.

A fully automated metro system (such as the DLR in London) would be a good outcome for the personnel costs, but this is likely to infuriate unions. Furthermore, I don't think that the Dutch are ready for fully automated train operation just yet. Only Amsterdam is currently looking at implemeting ATO (their new M5 trains are prepared for it), but no roll-out plans exist.

Quote:
In rush hour I've seen them pretty packed inside DH (from Central Station towards the south/western suburbs), I don't know if it happens also between the city and Zoetermeer.
Zoetermeer trams can be quite packed. It's a "sleeping town" linked to The Hague, lots of people who work somewhere in The Hague live in Zoetermeer and hence have to commute. Looking at HTM's timetables, I see that during rush hour trams go from Zoetermeer to The Hague once every few minutes. With such a high frequency, I think it can be justifiable that you'll have to wait one or two minutes more if a vehicle is really packed.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #2238
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I expected that there would be significant ridership increases thanks to RandstadRail. The reason I posed the question was because Manchester has similarly replaced a number of its old railway lines with trams and, while there have been huge increases in passengers, some of the former users of the railway lines miss some of the ticketing benefits of being part of the national rail network, for example through ticketing across the country and being able to use discount railcards.

Also, some people question the wisdom of replacing heavy rail with light rail and would have advocated modernising the old railway lines and connecting them up with tunnels in the style of the German S-Bahn. The former railway lines around Manchester were very dilapidated (some of them not electrified) so some people claim that the patronage rise is more of a result of electrification and updating the infrastructure and similar increases would have been made if the heavy rail was upgraded instead.

I am particularly interested in the ZoRo bus link. I have been on it a couple of times and been suitably impressed. The Dutch are the masters in bus priority. However, I was wondering whether some people would have preferred the old direct bus between Zoetermeer and Rotterdam? Also, I suspect that patronage along the ZoRo has been inflated by new housing developments along the bus route.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 12:58 PM   #2239
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RandstadRail has very different lines, like the very tram-like ones in Den Haag, the light-rail ones to Zoetermeer, and the heavy metro one (line E) Slinge-Den Haag Centraal
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Old October 26th, 2014, 02:28 PM   #2240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
A fully automated metro system (such as the DLR in London) would be a good outcome for the personnel costs, but this is likely to infuriate unions. Furthermore, I don't think that the Dutch are ready for fully automated train operation just yet. Only Amsterdam is currently looking at implemeting ATO (their new M5 trains are prepared for it), but no roll-out plans exist.
The London DLR still has staff to close the doors and also to operate the train from time to time. You have to vacate the front seat if the 'Passenger Service Agent' wants to drive the train. They do, however, cost less than a normal London Underground train driver.

Do the Metro drivers in Amsterdam/Rotterdam actually drive the train, or just open and close the doors with the computer doing the actual driving?
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