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Old December 13th, 2014, 12:35 PM   #2461
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Nobody said anything about 200km/h bypasses of Dordrecht and Leiden. The plan at the time was considerably more patchy than that and would predominantly have benefited places outside the Randstad.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 05:01 PM   #2462
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While the northern section of HSL-Zuid serves its purpose, it's a completely bonkers decision to have it built as a true high-speed railway. If it had been built to a 200 km/h standard as is the case with the Hanzelijn, it would have been much easier to integrate the new railway line into the rest of the network.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #2463
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Why happened this?

Quote:
City Night Line

De verbinding met CNL vanuit Amsterdam Centraal naar Kopenhagen is per 2 november vervallen.
City Night Line naar Praag en Warschau rijdt vanaf Duisburg. U kunt met ICE International naar Duisburg of Oberhausen en daar overstappen op CNL.
City Night Line naar München en Zürich rijdt nog wel vanaf Amsterdam Centraal.
No night train service to Copenhagen form November. Even no service from Amsterdam, Utrecht to Warsaw (Warszawa) and Prague (Praha)?
The only leftover is CNL to Munich and Zurich...

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Old December 13th, 2014, 05:37 PM   #2464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I think the opposing argument at the time was to forget about building an HSL and to use the money on upgrading all the major links to 4 tracks at 200km/h instead. The idea behind this being that 300km/h offers few benefits over 200km/h in a country where the distances are relatively short.

In hindsight, that would probably have been the smarter choice.
Indeed.

There was even a plan that went even further: The proposal was to build a dense light rail network in the Randstad, so that local trains could be completely removed from the main line altogether. So the main line would then only have had the stations of Schiphol, Hoofddorp, Leiden, Den Haag, Delft and then Rotterdam. The inhabitants of the area in between would be served with a light rail system with good integration in the main railway system.
In this case it wouldn't even have been necessary to increase the main line to 4 tracks. Only a speed increase to 200 kph would have sufficed.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 06:04 PM   #2465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mappero View Post
Why happened this?


No night train service to Copenhagen form November. Even no service from Amsterdam, Utrecht to Warsaw (Warszawa) and Prague (Praha)?
The only leftover is CNL to Munich and Zurich...

CNL is having financial troubles with its operations and drastically cut them.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 07:25 PM   #2466
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Meanwhile NS in Antwerpen Centraal:

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Old December 13th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #2467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
How do you guys know all this stuff?
That's probably the meanest of all questions

I could give you a very professional and academic answer, but the sad reality is that most rail nerds just lose an astonishing amount of time by studying any possibly useless detail in many systems often for a sort of "feeling part of the game".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I think the opposing argument at the time was to forget about building an HSL and to use the money on upgrading all the major links to 4 tracks at 200km/h instead. The idea behind this being that 300km/h offers few benefits over 200km/h in a country where the distances are relatively short.

In hindsight, that would probably have been the smarter choice.
Yep, could have been a serious upgrade. I would already be happy if we could reach the 160 km/h standard

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Indeed.

There was even a plan that went even further: The proposal was to build a dense light rail network in the Randstad, so that local trains could be completely removed from the main line altogether. So the main line would then only have had the stations of Schiphol, Hoofddorp, Leiden, Den Haag, Delft and then Rotterdam. The inhabitants of the area in between would be served with a light rail system with good integration in the main railway system.
In this case it wouldn't even have been necessary to increase the main line to 4 tracks. Only a speed increase to 200 kph would have sufficed.
This one seems a bit radical in the other way It may actually work if demand from any place would be directed only to the closest main station, because in the opposite direction it'd make lose a lot of time...

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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
While the northern section of HSL-Zuid serves its purpose, it's a completely bonkers decision to have it built as a true high-speed railway. If it had been built to a 200 km/h standard as is the case with the Hanzelijn, it would have been much easier to integrate the new railway line into the rest of the network.
Oh sir, what a morbid, morbid, morbid idea you just gave me

This will make Subby's head explode, but... we can still downgrade it to LSL Zuid!



And by giving to the Thalys the trace of the IC, you can even get 4 fast trains + 4 slow trains per hour...



This is not complete lunacy: it actually creates lots of connections with cities today poorly connected with both Amsterdam/Schiphol and Rotterdam.

(Rotterdam Overschie is a personal invention related to another idea, an S-Bahn through Rotterdam from Goverwelle. I'll talk about it, but one crazy idea per day)

NS must just steal a couple of Desiros from SNCB...
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Last edited by Wilhem275; December 13th, 2014 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Sorry, wrong link
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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:28 AM   #2468
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2 fast trains per hour on HSL are nowhere nearly enough for long terms plans.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:59 AM   #2469
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I think an 'ETMET' offering would be best for passengers within the Randstad and Benelux areas. The (semi-) fast trains using the northern section would then be as follows:

- x:10 IC Amsterdam - Vlissingen
- x:20 ICd Amsterdam - Brussels
- x:30 ICd Amsterdam - Breda
- x:40 IC Amsterdam - Vlissingen
- x:50 THA Amsterdam - Paris
- x:00 ICd Amsterdam - Breda

The train towards Vlissingen continues to run over Dordrecht towards Roosendaal, all other trains use the high speed line to reach Breda and Belgium/France.

If you'd want to fit sprinter trains inbetween, additional tracks would be needed at some of the sprinter stations so that the fast trains can overtake them there.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 08:28 AM   #2470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mappero View Post
Meanwhile NS in Antwerpen Centraal:

Here is one at Cologne (Köln) Hbf

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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:51 PM   #2471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I think an 'ETMET' offering would be best for passengers within the Randstad and Benelux areas. The (semi-) fast trains using the northern section would then be as follows:

- x:10 IC Amsterdam - Vlissingen
- x:20 ICd Amsterdam - Brussels
- x:30 ICd Amsterdam - Breda
- x:40 IC Amsterdam - Vlissingen
- x:50 THA Amsterdam - Paris
- x:00 ICd Amsterdam - Breda

The train towards Vlissingen continues to run over Dordrecht towards Roosendaal, all other trains use the high speed line to reach Breda and Belgium/France.

If you'd want to fit sprinter trains inbetween, additional tracks would be needed at some of the sprinter stations so that the fast trains can overtake them there.
This would have been a nice plan from the beginning, and still could be applied. Probably also the Vlissingen could be taken to Breda via HSL and then reverse to Roosendaal, to double the offer to Breda (if needed). Add to this the future Den Haag - Eindhoven via HSL and Breda gets 6 tph to Rotterdam and 4 to Amsterdam.

Compared to the current situation Leiden, Den Haag and Delft would lose one IC (Vlissingen), but I'm pretty sure it could be replaced by something else (possibly routed via Amsterdam Zuid, since this is a missing link). Something maybe terminating in Roosendaal, via Dordrecht.

I just wanted to demonstrate that, with the current low usage, it would be possible to even fit local trains with no collateral damage a joke, but it could have a meaning if put into a serious plan to correct that (now) poor line.
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; December 14th, 2014 at 06:01 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:54 PM   #2472
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Old December 14th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #2473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
This would have been a nice plan from the beginning, and still could be applied. Probably also the Vlissingen could be taken to Breda via HSL and then reverse to Roosendaal, to double the offer to Breda (if needed). Add to this the future Den Haag - Eindhoven via HSL and Breda gets 6 tph to Rotterdam and 4 to Amsterdam.
No thanks. The train is already half an hour behind the car on the Rotterdam - Vlissingen stretch. Let's not add to that.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #2474
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Sorry, I believed it would have been faster that today, I forgot that Breda and Roosendaal are not that close
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #2475
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I saw the first New-style Beneluxtrain today in Brussel-Noord. Both (B) logo and NS logo on it, although it was brandnew it was covered in loads of gravity, something that always strikes me about NMBS trains. Although this is a partly Dutch train, I believe that "major gravitied" trains are taken out of service as soon as possible for cleaning.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 06:35 AM   #2476
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(this post can be taken more seriously than the LSL Zuid fake proposal)

I've been thinking about the silly schedule of the new Beneluxtrein (BLX), especially how it has to stick behind the Vlissingen - Lelystad for the whole of its Dutch route.
Now, there are certain conditions between Roosendaal and Den Haag that make an overtake impossible; but the situation is less stringent after Den Haag.

So, sticking to the new timetable, this is what can be obtained for a faster schedule:

In (brackets) is the time of transit for trains not calling at the station.

In detail:
- total time Rotterdam - HS is easily shrunk, and not even pushing to the limit
- less time lost at HS (I mean, why 4 minutes?)
- BLX passes Laan van NOI at speed, just after the IC has left
- by the time the IC is leaving the track entering Leiden, BLX is one or two sections behind it and maybe even travelling at 160 km/h from Mariahove (those locos should be allowed to do it)
- BLX passes the stopped IC at full speed, using the central tracks of Leiden, and is far away before the IC leaves
- free path up to Hoofddorp, then BLX runs just behind the Sprinter Leiden - Almere (they both use the outermost track from Hoofddorp to Schiphol)
- the three trains are received in Schiphol in the following order: Hoorn (innermost track), Almere (outermost track), BLX (middle track)
- BLX departs just after the Sprinter to Hoorn, both using the innermost track
- between Riekerpolder and the Hemboog BLX still runs behind the Sprinter to Hoorn
- free path from Hemboog till CS

This was made still keeping some margin on speed and stopping times, and without touching the schedule of any other train.
As a backup, in case of delays before Leiden, the BLX can just be kept behind the IC and follow its current schedule, arriving 8 minutes late.

There is one conflict in the opposite direction, with the BLX entering HS around :42-:44 and a Sprinter leaving towards CS at :43.
This can be solved giving the Sprinter a virtual departure time between :42 and :45, and deciding in real time which moment is the most convenient (before or after the BLX). The "flexible" arrival at CS does not harm any other movement or any connection with trains to Gouda/Utrecht.

While a 8' cut has limited impact on an overall time of over 3 hours, local effects are interesting.
All stations between Rotterdam and Den Haag get -5' to Amsterdam CS (around -9%); time from Den Haag HS is cut from 48' to 40' (-17%). The shift of passenger (HS - Schiphol/Amsterdam) from the IC to the BLX would also reduce the overcrowding I often registered on the IC between HS and Leiden.

This change may virtually be applied tomorrow morning.

Apart from all this, I think it would be honest to immediately add a stop in Rotterdam Blaak: between Dordrecht and Rotterdam CS the BLX was given the very same time of the IC (which calls at Blaak).
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Last edited by Wilhem275; December 15th, 2014 at 06:50 AM.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:06 PM   #2477
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I don't know if this will be a permanent situation, but it appears that with the new timetable all Sprinters Den Haag CS - Breda/Roosendaal are now operated with SLTs instead of SGMs (this used to happen only during weekends).

I wonder who got the SGMs, then...
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:39 PM   #2478
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Probably somewhere else, it used to be Mat'64 in 2010, then SLT before 2013 and SGMm untill know. They rotate a lot, just what fits the best!


Btw, from the Dutch forum, the date of the first train in the new Delft-railway tunnel is 28-02-15!
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Old December 16th, 2014, 09:43 PM   #2479
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Have they extended that tramway from Den Haag to Delf Zuid, which was aimed at reducing a bit the demand for short-distance train travel between Delft and Den Haag?
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Old December 16th, 2014, 10:08 PM   #2480
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huh?

Line 1 has been Running between Scheveningen-The Hague Centre-Delft-Delft South since the 80's. A few years back line 19 was added between Delft South-Delft-Nootdorp-Leidschenveen. When Line 19 became a Randstadrail tram the service was cut to Delft North (due to platform issues).

The Rail tunnel I'm speaking about is the main Rotterdam-Amsterdam Railway line which currently runs over the viaduct trough the city center.
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