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Old February 10th, 2015, 08:23 PM   #2601
Wilhem275
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That's a widespread problem today in Europe: former monopolists gained independence and thus follow their internal interests, but States are still believing those operators' suggestions like they are a reliable neutral advisor.

This is a fault of weak Ministries, in my opinion, who chose to dump a part of their political responsibilities (mainly because the general public doesn't know or doesn't care about these dynamics).
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Old February 10th, 2015, 08:37 PM   #2602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
NS claims they need 8 years to order some 200 km/h trains. And the State believed them!
I'm guessing it's also a funding issue. Pretty sure if it were up to NS they'd have ordered new trains yesterday.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #2603
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I'm guessing it's also a funding issue. Pretty sure if it were up to NS they'd have ordered new trains yesterday.
NS funds the trains themselves, they did actually start with a tendering procedure.

The timelines are more or less as follows:
- 2014: start tendering procedure
- 2016: contract awarding
- 2019: testing
- 2020: entry into service

NS has only specified the most important aspects: 200 kph top speed, number of seats and desired train lengths, suitable for operation on the Dutch rail network and in Dutch weather conditions. They want a framework contract and would also like to have an option for trains that can run in Germany and Belgium.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 10:57 PM   #2604
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What speed does Thalys go between Schiphol and Rotterdam?
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Old February 10th, 2015, 11:24 PM   #2605
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I'm not 100% sure about this, but I've seen videos in which they keep 250 km/h (also in the Southern part), so I figured that they'll go faster only in case of delays.

It's a guess, but it's also a common practice in many HS systems.
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Old February 10th, 2015, 11:26 PM   #2606
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On the northern section, a Thalys train can only maintain its top speed (300 km/h) for about 2 minutes before it has to start decelerating again. So it's just timetabled for a slightly lower speed (helps cut the energy bill, too) and they can make it up if the train has left Amsterdam or Schiphol late.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:55 AM   #2607
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And there's your problem.

The horrible thing is... back in 2013/2014, after the Fyra collapse, NS managed to persuade the government that it's not possible to run 200 km/h before 2021.

NS claims they need 8 years to order some 200 km/h trains. And the State believed them!
All they would have needed to do is ask Siemens to build a few more Railjet sets. These could have been running by now even...

Would have been perfect for this service.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:37 AM   #2608
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Exactly. And realise a RailJet costs less then 10 million euro per set, compared to 22 million for the AB V250 and about 30 million for a Velaro or AGV. However one small glitch: By the time they realised a RailJet could have done new EU TSIs didn't allow certification of the Taurus in new countries anymore.

And for those services continuing to Brussels, consider this: only on the 161km stretch between Rotterdam and Antwerp higher speeds will give you a real advantage. On the Schiphol to Rotterdam part 230 km/h would have been enough and between Antwerp and Brussels speeds are limited to 160 km/h anyway.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 10:25 AM   #2609
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Exactly. And realise a RailJet costs less then 10 million euro per set, compared to 22 million for the AB V250 and about 30 million for a Velaro or AGV. However one small glitch: By the time they realised a RailJet could have done new EU TSIs didn't allow certification of the Taurus in new countries anymore.
The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 10:45 AM   #2610
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Previously the Eindhoven Airport ticket was presented: http://www.spoordeelwinkel.nl/produc...airport#229-05
Now there is as well the Amsterdam Schiphol Airport ticket:
http://www.gvb.nl/Documents/att/English.html
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Old February 11th, 2015, 02:45 PM   #2611
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Quote:
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The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.
But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.

Anyway that's all theoretical, because the Netherlands has chosen to interpret the EU preference for train sets very literal, resulting in pretty much requiring EMU/DMUs and a dislike in the use of fixed consist locomotive with carriages. Also the regulations for speeds over 230 km/h can only be met with EMUs.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:01 PM   #2612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
What speed does Thalys go between Schiphol and Rotterdam?
Slotted at 300 km/h and operated as such.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:13 PM   #2613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
All they would have needed to do is ask Siemens to build a few more Railjet sets. These could have been running by now even...

Would have been perfect for this service.
Yes and no.

They have indeed looked at that option and confirmed that it was way to expansive in operation. This fleet would be even smaller then the V250 fleet as it would be absurd to run it to Belgium. The smaller a fleet is the higher their operational costs. This is why airlines try to gain the highest fleet commonality available. If your a Airbus airline flying the A320 family it wouldn't cross your mind to lease or even buy a Boeing 73x. You stick with what you got as it is way cheaper, even if that means flying less routes or suspending the introduction of services for a while.

Same applies to trains. A bigger your fleet equals cheaper spare parts, staff training costs and facilities hence why the first series of IRM stock could alse be replaced by ICNG
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #2614
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Quote:
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But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.
Siemens has the designs and specifications for that. However, they've decided not to build any 230 km/h Vectrons: it would require a reinforced cab structure and a different kind of bogie. Given that locomotives are mostly in demand by freight operators or used on conventional rail, the demand for a 230 km/h locomotive is low.

However, Siemens can start building almost straight away if a customer shows up for a Vectron230.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:47 PM   #2615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.
And what about this beauty .

[IMG]http://oi61.************/11tsnx0.jpg[/IMG]
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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:10 PM   #2616
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And what about this beauty .
I fear NS will stay with Traxx loco's, and not experiment with winter proof Skoda locs.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:55 PM   #2617
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They should be doing 190 km/h with a double deck. Max 200 km/h. I have no idea of its compatibility with the Dutch network.
http://rail-sim.de/forum/index.php/T...-M%C3%BCnchen/
http://www.skoda.cz/de/press/zum-dow...4/resource.pdf

Last edited by Surel; February 11th, 2015 at 09:05 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #2618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
They have indeed looked at that option and confirmed that it was way to expansive in operation. This fleet would be even smaller then the V250 fleet as it would be absurd to run it to Belgium.
Why would it be absurd to run them to Belgium? Especially given that the Siemens Vectron is already approved for Belgium.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 05:03 PM   #2619
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given that the Siemens Vectron is already approved for Belgium.
It is not.

The HLE 18 electric locomotive is not a Vectron, it's a ES64U3 (ES64U4 without the 15 kV installation).
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Old February 15th, 2015, 01:48 AM   #2620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.

Anyway that's all theoretical, because the Netherlands has chosen to interpret the EU preference for train sets very literal, resulting in pretty much requiring EMU/DMUs and a dislike in the use of fixed consist locomotive with carriages. Also the regulations for speeds over 230 km/h can only be met with EMUs.
The use of trains sets in the Netherlands has nothing to do with the EU. It is all because train sets are much easier and faster to couple and uncouple. This makes it possible to lengthen/shorten trains 'on the fly', which happens regularly.
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