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Old February 24th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #2641
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I left Holland 16 years ago and always loved trains but wow, is that engine in post #2591 ugly!
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Old February 24th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #2642
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Old February 25th, 2015, 12:53 AM   #2643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woopud View Post
I left Holland 16 years ago and always loved trains but wow, is that engine in post #2591 ugly!
That engine is okay.

I think that the best-looking train to ever be in service in Netherlands was this


(c) SNCB

Pity its mechanical and assembly issues meant it was only on revenue service for 3 weeks.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 04:27 AM   #2644
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Due to the interruption between Den Haag HS and Schiedam, I see some IC services are diverted or cancelled:

- IC Amsterdam - Dordrecht via Haarlem is limited to HS;
- IC Lelystad - Vlissingen via Schiphol is diverted and limited to Den Haag CS (north) and to Rotterdam (south);
- IC Brussel - Amsterdam via Den Haag is limited to Rotterdam, same for IC Venlo - Den Haag;
- Sprinters Den Haag CS - Breda/Roosendaal are limited to Schiedam Centrum:
- no trains at all between Den Haag HS and CS.

Correct?

I wonder how they are moving that large number of travellers between north (Den Haag, Leiden, Haarlem) and south (Rotterdam).
Are they operating any extra train between Den Haag and Rotterdam via Gouda, or everything is managed with buses?
Maybe they suspended the toeslag between Schiphol and Rotterdam on IC Direct's?
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Last edited by Wilhem275; February 25th, 2015 at 04:33 AM.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 06:42 AM   #2645
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You seem to be right about the service alterations. IC Direct is without supplement, formally only during off-peak hours (as the train is already full during peak hours), but in practice I don't think many train managers enforce that.

Luckily, it's a vacation period in the majority of the Netherlands so less passengers are likely to use the network during that time. The diversionary routes and the replacement buses should suffice to handle the demand, apart from that I expect that a lot of people have made alternative arrangements as well: take the car, work from home, or use Randstadrail E between The Hague and Rotterdam.

I've used RR E yesterday and it was quite full (18:30 from The Hague). I saw little people standing, but all seats were taken.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 11:43 AM   #2646
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There are no extra trains to and from Gouda. Passengers can either take the replacement buses, use the regular trains to and from Gouda (and transfer there) or take RR E.

Between The Hague and Delft, HTM are running extra trams on line 1.

Like AlexNL pointed out, this week is Spring break so the rush hour is very noticeably quieter. Even the bike paths are far less congested than usual.
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Old February 25th, 2015, 11:05 PM   #2647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
And there's your problem.

The horrible thing is... back in 2013/2014, after the Fyra collapse, NS managed to persuade the government that it's not possible to run 200 km/h before 2021.

NS claims they need 8 years to order some 200 km/h trains. And the State believed them!
Why not to buy the same Pendolino as PKP Polish Railways has?





PKP Pendolino is on 3kV DC, so easily could replace not existing Fyra on Amsterdam - Brussels route.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #2648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Due to the interruption between Den Haag HS and Schiedam, I see some IC services are diverted or cancelled:

- IC Amsterdam - Dordrecht via Haarlem is limited to HS;
- IC Lelystad - Vlissingen via Schiphol is diverted and limited to Den Haag CS (north) and to Rotterdam (south);
- IC Brussel - Amsterdam via Den Haag is limited to Rotterdam, same for IC Venlo - Den Haag;
- Sprinters Den Haag CS - Breda/Roosendaal are limited to Schiedam Centrum:
- no trains at all between Den Haag HS and CS.

Correct?

I wonder how they are moving that large number of travellers between north (Den Haag, Leiden, Haarlem) and south (Rotterdam).
Are they operating any extra train between Den Haag and Rotterdam via Gouda, or everything is managed with buses?
Maybe they suspended the toeslag between Schiphol and Rotterdam on IC Direct's?
More trains are canceled:
The IC Amsterdam-Den Haag CS via Haarlem is limited to Leiden CS due to lack of platform space at Den Haag CS.
The Sprinter Almere Oostvaarders-Hoofddorp is usually extended to Leiden CS in peak hours, but because the IC above is turning there, it is limited to Hoofddorp all day.

About the IC Direct toeslag (supplement) between Schiphol and Rotterdam, it is suspended outside peak hours.
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Old February 26th, 2015, 12:14 AM   #2649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mappero View Post
Why not to buy the same Pendolino as PKP Polish Railways has?

[...]

PKP Pendolino is on 3kV DC, so easily could replace not existing Fyra on Amsterdam - Brussels route.
Alstom proposed those Pendolino's to NS, in an interview a guy from Alstom stated "If NS were to place an order with us now, they can be built right after the PKP ones and we can get them delivered quickly." NS, however, never replied to the Alstom offer.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #2650
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Pity, cause delivery time will be short and those Pendolinos could fast replace the ex Fyra...
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Old February 28th, 2015, 01:46 AM   #2651
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That is true, but at that time NS felt that it was inappropriate to just flat-out replace the Fyra trains. As it turned out, the entire business model on which Fyra was built was a complete fiasco: passengers protested against the required reservation, the dynamic pricing and the disadvantages that come with a typical international high speed train.

Lots of passengers voted with their feet: they switched to cars, buses, the all-station service from Roosendaal. Due to Fyra's inreliability, one guy even chose the airplane over the train.

While the purchase of new Pendolino's from Alstom would have given NS fast high speed trains in a short timeframe, this would not make it possible to reconsider the product offering. The new trains would not be cheap, while at that time it was yet unclear what the financial damage of the V250 collapse would be for NS.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 02:56 AM   #2652
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When AnsaldoBreda was the only company left in the first tender, they should have delayed the decision and get a new tender out. By that time the non-tilting Pendolino would have been on offer.

We would then have a proven train, on time, without the financial fiasco the V250 has turned out to be.

But no, they HAD to go with the unreliable, cheap supplier (AB already had a very shady reputation before any contracts were signed for the V250). They didn't take a moment to sit back calmly, look at the playing field and decide on their next step.

On a track where the Thalys manages to get up to 300 km/h, a 250 km/h train makes sense.
The 200 km/h IC NG will not be able to make the contractually obliged time (which would have been difficult even at 250 km/h!). And the strange thing is, NS will probably get away with these breach of contract.

Now we'll have to wait quite a few years to see some improvement for last-minute travel NL-BE. I like Thalys, but it is too expensive if you want to leave tomorrow or the next day. The other train is way too slow (it's slower than the old Benelux line...).
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Old February 28th, 2015, 06:30 AM   #2653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
When AnsaldoBreda was the only company left in the first tender, they should have delayed the decision and get a new tender out. By that time the non-tilting Pendolino would have been on offer.

We would then have a proven train, on time, without the financial fiasco the V250 has turned out to be.

But no, they HAD to go with the unreliable, cheap supplier (AB already had a very shady reputation before any contracts were signed for the V250). They didn't take a moment to sit back calmly, look at the playing field and decide on their next step.
It's a bit more complicated than that, though. When the rolling stock tender was issued, there was still a lot of uncertainty about technology (e.g. ERTMS), which services would be required and how the cooperation with the Belgians would go. As a result of this, the tender and the subsequent issuing of the contract got delayed as well.

The size of the initial order was changed a few times during the tendering procedure, which led to nearly everybody dropping out, except AnsaldoBreda. The Dutch State however told NS very clearly that the concession would start on April 1st, 2007, as that was the expected date for the infrastructure to be ready. Trains or not, NS would have to pay for the right to run trains from that day.

If NS had decided to cancel the tendering procedure and start over, it would have been certain that that deadline would not be met. The deal with AB was finally inked in May 2004, which would give AnsaldoBreda about 34 months to build and commission the vehicles.

In lots of rolling stock tenders, a period of about 3 years is enough to get the rolling stock built and entered into service. For example, the Gouda-Alphen a/d Rijn concession was awarded to Abellio in April 2014 while the first "R-Net" trains should be running in december 2016. For this, Abellio will be using FLIRT trains built by Stadler, and they will be the first of its kind to run in the Netherlands. The FLIRT is a highly modular train, for which Stadler already has made a lot of technical designs. They can simply build to order and deliver it quickly, because most of the engineering work is already done.

I am under the impression that NS thought the same thing about the V250 when it was ordered. Maybe the Italians persuaded them into believing that, stating that AB has "lots of experience" with high speed trains such as the ETR 500. It could be that NS at that time believed that they were ordering an "off the shelf" product instead of the custom designed high speed train that they really got.


Quote:
On a track where the Thalys manages to get up to 300 km/h, a 250 km/h train makes sense.
No, it doesn't. Not even the Thalys' top speed makes sense on the route from Schiphol to Antwerp. The time gained by going at 300 km/h as opposed to 220 or 250 km/h is a matter of minutes, maybe 5 at most.

Quote:
The 200 km/h IC NG will not be able to make the contractually obliged time (which would have been difficult even at 250 km/h!). And the strange thing is, NS will probably get away with these breach of contract.
For domestic services, 200 km/h is fast enough. Going faster between Hoofddorp and Rotterdam will yield you maybe one minute. More time can be gained by optimizing the entry/exit at Rotterdam as this is painfully slow, and by better timetabling. The same goes for Rotterdam - Breda.

According to the timetable, an IC Direct train going 160 km/h needs 25 minutes to do Breda - Rotterdam. However, if all signals are green and the driver likes to "pedal to the metal", a journey time of 19 minutes can be achieved. I see it happen plenty of times.


Quote:
Now we'll have to wait quite a few years to see some improvement for last-minute travel NL-BE. I like Thalys, but it is too expensive if you want to leave tomorrow or the next day. The other train is way too slow (it's slower than the old Benelux line...).
The initial batch of IC-NG trains is meant solely for domestic use. A request for a "Belgium compatible version" is specified in the tender, but only for a sequential order.

The loco-hauled ICR coaches that are being used for the Benelux today are expected to remain in service until at least 2025, whisking passengers from Amsterdam to Brussels at the dazzling speed of 160 km/h with intermediate stops in The Hague, Breda, Noorderkempen, etc. etc.

New high speed rolling stock simply does not make sense for the "Beneluxplus" as it will be slower than the Beneluxtrein was back in the 1980's. If you want high speed, Thalys (and later on, Eurostar) is your only option.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 06:56 AM   #2654
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Yes yes, which is why I want a medium high speed (250 km/h, or if there's no other possibility 200 km/h) Benelux train that does Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Antwerp-Brussels (Breda-Antwerp-Brussels should be done by a different train, as turning at Breda costs too much time).
It should be sped up further by eliminating slow approaches/departures at Amsterdam and Rotterdam. It should have a fixed price and not require reservations.

I can tell you this train would be an instant success.


As I said: "When AnsaldoBreda was the only company left in the first tender, they should have delayed the decision and get a new tender out."
As NS has been able to get out of any other contracts, obligations, etc., delaying the concession would have been no problem.

Might I inform you that currently they still do not have a 250 km/h train for their concession? Delaying it back in 2004 would have been best for all, and the fact they were left with just AB should have been a major sign to all parties involved.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #2655
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I am quite sure that NS was not happy when only AnsaldoBreda was left, but they had little choice. The Dutch State indicated that the concession would start on April 1st, 2007. Trains or no trains, the concession fee would have to be paid anyway.

The bailout that has been given to NS by Eurlings was not in sight back in 2003/2004, and the infrastructure delays of 1.5 years (due to ERTMS problems and issues with the noise screens in Brabant) were also not yet on the horizon. In an attempt to minimise losses, NS simply had no choice but to continue with AB, hoping for the best.

I agree that a direct train from Amsterdam to Brussels would be best, the stops in Breda and The Hague are insane. When drawing up the new plans, NS mostly looked at how to please political stakeholders (nation, province and city) and at what SNCB wanted, passenger interests came third.

NS absolutely wanted to prevent Arriva from entering the market, which is why the Beneluxtrein is once again routed over The Hague. The stop in Breda should be dropped too, perhaps the local train from Utrecht should continue towards Antwerp.

I think an open access operator could make some money on that line, if the price and offer is right: faster than the Beneluxtrein, cheaper and more flexible than Thalys.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 01:41 PM   #2656
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Yesterday the tunnel and the new station in Delft was opened. The tunnel replaces the old line running over a viaduct running directly through the historical city center.


1.

IMG_4108 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_3882 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_3945 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_3972 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_3989 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4049 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4061 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4439 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4450 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4693 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_4834 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_5018 by Momo1435, on Flickr

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IMG_5225 by Momo1435, on Flickr
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Old March 1st, 2015, 02:17 PM   #2657
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I will miss that viaduct... (locals will not, probably ).
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Old March 1st, 2015, 04:26 PM   #2658
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Yesterday the tunnel and the new station in Delft was opened. The tunnel replaces the old line running over a viaduct running directly through the historical city center.
Would you have some track schemes with distances of the rails before and after, description of the project, and some costs calculations? Thank you.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 04:52 PM   #2659
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The designs of new Dutch stations are always interesting. Arnhem, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Dronten, Breda, Delft all look very nice.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 06:22 PM   #2660
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Congatulations Delft with new station What timeline for demolition of old station?
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