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Old September 18th, 2015, 04:55 PM   #2861
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I'm sure that if it had reduced revenue, companies would have complained. On the contrary, GVB (local transp. Amsterdam) and RET (local transp. Rotterdam) started getting a significantly amount of increased shared revenue from passes and ticket combinations, as the old system did not account properly multimodal uses.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #2862
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K_, I don't understand your obsession with the issue of "can't have a system without written proof". If we were to take it seriously, virtually any application relying on RFID or other near-field communication would be dead on arrival.

For instance, in the Netherlands it is now possible at most debt card machines to make small payments touching your card on a reader for 2 seconds or so, instead of inserting it and entering a PIN. You probably wouldn't accept that because there isn't a register of an user physically entering a code (something that requires active and decisive action from the account holder) and because in a very, very limited number of circumstances a wrong card could have been read.
a) nope, you could use smart-phone app based services with RFID. You could also hook up a mobile phone number to your OV account, and have confirmation sms sent to your phone, if smart-phone app would be a problem.

b) nope. you got the receipt from the cash register.

btw, I've been paying wireless with my debit card already several years ago in the CZ and more then ten years ago via sms in public transport.
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Old September 18th, 2015, 06:20 PM   #2863
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When you enter the NS gate or touch the pole it tells you on the display that you have checked in with NS. How much more evidence do you want?
You would need some sort of proof that would be instantly available to both of you, the conductor and you that you have checked in. That is. You would be required to carry on you some sort of feedback from the machine that is easy to be checked by both, you and the conductor. That is a clear validation of your fare.

E.g. if instead of the OV card the service used smarth phone app, you would be required not only to check in, but if asked, you would be required to show on the screen of your phone the message that says that you checked in.

In Prague there's a system that works with SMSes. Instead of buying a ticked, you send special SMS to certain number. It deducts the fare from your phone bill and you receive in return a confirmation sms with the information about your ticket, times, price, and identification number.

If you are asked to show your ticket, you show the sms with the information, it's unique number is checked and everything is clear.


If you use paper ticket, it is not valid unless you validate it. The validation is there for everyone to see, to show the dates and times for which the ticket is valid.

In case of electronic fare, you need a validation as well. That is the check-in. The OV card however as it is now lacks a access to those validation information for the passenger. Therefore you canīt ask the passenger to provide those validation information when requested. What was easy with the paper ticket is impossible with the OV card.
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Old September 19th, 2015, 01:59 PM   #2864
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You would need some sort of proof that would be instantly available to both of you, the conductor and you that you have checked in.
The magnetic strip cards in the Prodata System used on public transport in Flanders do exactly that: They print a line on the back of the card each time you use it, so you can easily check yourself dat indeed the machine did the right thing.
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Old September 19th, 2015, 08:13 PM   #2865
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First: In a "My word against his word"-battle the conductor usually leaves it as it is. He can also see the last 10 uses of the card, if the person seems to be paying regularly, an incident is likely.
Second: You can always check the status of a card at a ticket machine. Once you present the card to the machine it will immediately tell if it is checked in or not. Larger stations have ticket machine both inside and outside the gates. You could also ask a conductor before boarding, he can always check.
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Old September 19th, 2015, 10:58 PM   #2866
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I can understand K_'s issue to an extent, despite being in favour of smartcard use in transport. That's partly why I switched from Oyster to contactless in London. In London, one failed validation on the bus can mean a criminal record. However, I have no such issues in the Netherlands as compared to London there are more safeguards and more ways to check that you have validated and the worst you have to fear for a one-off "offence" would be a 35 euro penalty, not a criminal record.

Visitors to London from the rest of the UK often say that they wish they had a smartcard system where they live.

Germany, Belgium and Switzerland have mobile tickets that you can load onto your smartphone. I guess that's not been considered necessary in the Netherlands because of the OV-Chipkaart, but maybe NS could now consider smartphone ticketing? That would satisfy people who don't want to use the OV-Chipkaart, particularly foreigners, but don't want the hassle of a printed e-ticket.

Last edited by radamfi; September 19th, 2015 at 11:07 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #2867
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I'm sure that if it had reduced revenue, companies would have complained. On the contrary, GVB (local transp. Amsterdam) and RET (local transp. Rotterdam) started getting a significantly amount of increased shared revenue from passes and ticket combinations, as the old system did not account properly multimodal uses.
If GVB and RET gained revenue, was there a corresponding loss to other carriers?
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Old September 19th, 2015, 11:47 PM   #2868
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FYI, TransLink Systems (owner, operator of OV-Chipkaart) has signed a deal with all the public transit companies in the country to make sure all the systems in the future are compatible (card readers and such). They're even looking into smartphone NFC OV-Chipaart usage and elimination of having to check in and out again when changing operators when switching trains. NS is already testing 'paying afterwards' (especially for people with an NS Business Card) with the OV-Chipkaart.

Recent article.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 03:09 AM   #2869
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If GVB and RET gained revenue, was there a corresponding loss to other carriers?
The net gains of GVB and RET came at expense of mostly some bus operators that were being paid significantly more than their actual share, based on outdated assumptions about flow of passengers. Both areas have subscriptions plans that mix up the "big state-local company" as the backbone carrier with services from contracted-out buses and NS (on a limited basis).

Old revenue share mechanisms (pre-OV-Chipkaart) underestimated sometimes dramatically the number of people actually using RET and GVB services. This has been corrected.

As a result, money allocated to buses was reduced. And, as the cities were facing budget crises at the time, they made noticeable cuts on the bus network, even as they boosted the tram/subway services, in Amsterdam, Den Haag and Rotterdam. Rotterdam experienced the most bus cuts.

I think the overall result was positive, there were god-awful many redundant bus routes meant to give "one-seat rides" over trips that can be done with multiple transfers on the tram/subway network.

One must notice that, since the introduction of the OV-Chipkaart, rail fares have been kept mostly in line with inflation or a little bit over, whereas the kilometer-fare for local transportation has been increased quite significantly, in some cities by 40% since 2011.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 03:12 AM   #2870
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Switzerland, Germany and Belgium are not exactly comaprable with NEtherlands for they don't have a gating policy (meaning: a decision to introduce physical segregation of mass transportation with gates). Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 05:01 AM   #2871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.
...and very practical and also pleasant to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
and elimination of having to check in and out again when changing operators when switching trains.
This should have been done from the beginning...

IMHO, to make the OV-C system a lot less unpleasant, also the bus&tram level should be organized like railway&metro: check in/out machines at the stops, and not check out&in at stopovers.
To avoid abuses the typical German rule must be applied: round or return trips are not allowed, and if a passenger is found travelling back to the departure point he will be fined. The system can automatically calculate which routes are allowed, letting users know in advance and not leaving the interpretation to the checking staff.
Also, a maximum "open travel time" can be specified.

Of course this leaves some extra grades of freedom to the traveller (typically, taking a wide route from A to B...), with a few passenger*km slipping out of control; but, as it happens in Germany, the vast majority of users will just go from A to B, not affecting the final revenues.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 09:47 AM   #2872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Switzerland, Germany and Belgium are not exactly comaprable with NEtherlands for they don't have a gating policy (meaning: a decision to introduce physical segregation of mass transportation with gates). Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.
But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?
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Last edited by radamfi; September 20th, 2015 at 10:08 AM.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 10:44 AM   #2873
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"Yes mr. conductor, I really did buy a ticket! It's on my phone that just died!"
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Old September 20th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #2874
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Originally Posted by radamfi View Post
But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?
They intent to do so in the future. As a test, you can already load your international ticket to Belgium on to your smartphone (in the NS International app) and open the gates with it. The conductor is also able to read the tickets from your smartphone.
Tickets to Germany will follow in the foreseeable future (afaik this fall).
When successful, it's possible that it will also be used for domestic journeys.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 12:31 PM   #2875
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But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?
I'm not against it, or using smartphone. I'm against "open" systems like those of Germany or Switzerland, where you walk in a subway like the platform was just an extension of the sidewalk.

I like heavy physical segregation that creates a "passengers-only" zone within station, and gates reading smart mediums (phones, RFID etc) to control the flow.
--------------------------

Anyway, I was thinking about something: Dutch railways in general are entering a period of low expectations and dull projects. When I moved to Netherlands, there were all buzz and excitement for the HSL-Zuid (which was about to open, then), still some talks of reviving Zuiderzeelijn, the works on Hanzelijn, major reconstruction of several big key stations, the anticipation of new trains like the V250, big plans for services to London etc.

Now, there are just 2 stations undergoing major reconstruction, and not many new projects in the pipeline. There are not new concrete railway projects in advanced planning stages either - even "interurban tram" Maastricht-Hasselt is stalling a bit. The new trains for NS will have lower specs than the abandoned V-250.

At most, I read about studies or reviving rail service in Limburg and Groningen using already-existing heritage railway tracks.

That also replicates at local railway level. The Alphen a/d Rijn-Leiden tram-train was cancelled, the conversion of the Hoek van Holland branch to Randstad Rail + more stations is behind schedule, there are no new subway projects in Amsterdam, and not a talk about much needed subway services in Utrecht.

As the country already got over the worst of the financial crisis and is by all measures on a growing route again, it would be time to pull big projects again, like the Breda-Gorichem-Utrecht railway, reconstruction and building of 2 new tracks between Houten and Best, and new subway projects in all 4 major cities.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:00 PM   #2876
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They intent to do so in the future. As a test, you can already load your international ticket to Belgium on to your smartphone (in the NS International app) and open the gates with it. The conductor is also able to read the tickets from your smartphone.
Tickets to Germany will follow in the foreseeable future (afaik this fall).
When successful, it's possible that it will also be used for domestic journeys.
You gave me an idea! If NS International sell them then surely so will SNCB Europe. I then remembered that SNCB Europe sell Netherlands domestic tickets as homeprinted tickets, so I tried to book Amsterdam to Rotterdam at the SNCB Europe desktop website and it offers me "Mobile Ticket" as an option! I didn't try to book it though as I have no trips in the Netherlands in the near future. Has anyone else tried this, or is willing to try this?!
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:06 PM   #2877
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While smartcard travel in itself is a good idea, the system as introduced in the Netherlands is nonsense.
I lost my card the otherday, it's going to cost me €11 to replace it???????
I had to buy a ticket from the machine as a result and it costs €1 extra??????

My contract also included up to 4 people travelling with me.
I can not buy an e-ticket with korting???????
With the OV chipcard if visiting relatives want to use this, they have to buy a €7.50 card and load it with €20 . Not an option just visiting for the weekend. So instead of paying €2.00 each way from the airport they must pay €8.80 to get there and back.
No wonder operators are reporting an increase in revenue. NS must be raking it in from, every tourist paying €1 surcharge on their tickets to amsterdam.

Other countries allow you to buy refundable cards from vending machines but not Holland, to add to the list of things that are wrong. Holland had an opportunity to introduce a modern simple and customer friendly system, instead they managed to produce an overly complicated system which has done nothing but irritate everybody except the suburbanist.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:14 PM   #2878
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You can get a ticket combining a return train trip between Schiphol and Amsterdam and local GVB travel within Amsterdam for €15 for one day, €20 for two days and €25 for three days:

https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/uitle...-travel-ticket
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Old September 20th, 2015, 01:35 PM   #2879
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Now, there are just 2 stations undergoing major reconstruction, and not many new projects in the pipeline. There are not new concrete railway projects in advanced planning stages either - even "interurban tram" Maastricht-Hasselt is stalling a bit. The new trains for NS will have lower specs than the abandoned V-250.

That also replicates at local railway level. The Alphen a/d Rijn-Leiden tram-train was cancelled, the conversion of the Hoek van Holland branch to Randstad Rail + more stations is behind schedule, there are no new subway projects in Amsterdam, and not a talk about much needed subway services in Utrecht. .
First you complain about there no longer being any stations or concrete tracks being built right at this moment, but then you fail to mention there's is still an Amsterdam metro line and a new Utrecht tram line under construction right at this moment. I know you're aiming for more, but do those not count? Bit unfair now.

By the way, I don't see Utrecht fit for a metro. It's too small, and it can do with just an expanded tram and train network. They're currently upgrading the train services so that it should become a sort of RER. Combine that with a lightrail-style tram system and you have the same convenience of metro, for a lot less.
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Old September 20th, 2015, 02:02 PM   #2880
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You can get a ticket combining a return train trip between Schiphol and Amsterdam and local GVB travel within Amsterdam for €15 for one day, €20 for two days and €25 for three days:
That is more expensive than two single tickets under the new regime and a lot more than the €4 total they used to need for the weekend, I have bikes and no need for bus or tram.
The OV card does not offer the same service I used to get. It only takes the ability for me to buy smartphone or e-tickets with korting to sort out this problem, but they do not offer it. My NS contract did not get any cheaper yet I can no longer get korting for friends or relatives from abroad.
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