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Old September 21st, 2015, 12:33 PM   #2901
ErwinFCG
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With regard to the PHS 'metro-like frequencies', I read this is planned for the following routes:
  • Alkmaar – Amsterdam
  • Amsterdam – Utrecht – Eindhoven
  • Schiphol – Utrecht – Arnhem/Nijmegen
  • Den Haag – Rotterdam – Breda
  • Breda - Eindhoven
Which other frequency increases are planned in the Netherlands?

I know about the project enabling an additional train on Groningen-Leeuwarden (from 3 to 4 per hour) and two extra trains on Groningen-Assen (from 4 to 6 per hour). On the Prorail project website in addition it is mentioned "extra intercity Groningen-Zwolle". Would this mean that one of the two additional trains to Assen would be an intercity to Zwolle (and further south?), or would this be a 7th hourly train?
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Old September 21st, 2015, 06:24 PM   #2902
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Apart from the mentioned sectors I can think of:

- 2 hourly Extra IC direct services between Rotterdam and Amsterdam, with the IC The Hague-Venlo becomming a The Hague - Rotterdam- High speed Line- Breda - Eindhoven service.
- 2 hourly Extra Oss-Den Bosch peak-services
- Tons of extra Almere services
- 1 hourly Extra IC/Fast train Leeuwarden-Zwolle

You can also expect more trains on Veolia/Arriva etc. lines at the start of the tenders
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Old September 21st, 2015, 11:58 PM   #2903
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Progress.

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Old September 22nd, 2015, 07:59 AM   #2904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The point of have VMax 250km/h would be to have direct non-stop Eindhoven-Amsterdam trains. Now if only they hadn't demolished through-tracks in Utrecht...
There is not enough demand to fill a direct train Amsterdam - Eindhoven every 10 minutes...
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 08:02 AM   #2905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suasion View Post
For a public trabsport increasing frequency reduces journey time.
Indeed. A good system keeps people moving. Time is experienced differently when in a moving vehicle, than when waiting. So reducing waiting time by for example 10 minutes will lead to larger perceived gain then reducing travel time by 10 minutes.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 08:08 AM   #2906
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Switzerland, Germany and Belgium are not exactly comaprable with NEtherlands for they don't have a gating policy (meaning: a decision to introduce physical segregation of mass transportation with gates). Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.
Actually "gating" stations is outdated. At one time ticket inspections before accessing platforms where the norm all over Europe. I can still remember when NMBS went from a closed to an open system.

Making stations open, social places is the contemporary way. You want public transport to be friendly, welcoming. Sexy even. Want to see good looking young people on a friday evening? Go to a major station in Switzerland.
Open stations is part of making public transport a life style choice.

Gating stations like NS is doing is a step backwards. It's mostly a consequence of society capitulating to the anti social elements in it.

And that is really sad.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 11:40 AM   #2907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suasion View Post
While smartcard travel in itself is a good idea, the system as introduced in the Netherlands is nonsense.
I lost my card the otherday, it's going to cost me €11 to replace it???????
I had to buy a ticket from the machine as a result and it costs €1 extra??????

My contract also included up to 4 people travelling with me.
I can not buy an e-ticket with korting???????
With the OV chipcard if visiting relatives want to use this, they have to buy a €7.50 card and load it with €20 . Not an option just visiting for the weekend. So instead of paying €2.00 each way from the airport they must pay €8.80 to get there and back.
No wonder operators are reporting an increase in revenue. NS must be raking it in from, every tourist paying €1 surcharge on their tickets to amsterdam.

Other countries allow you to buy refundable cards from vending machines but not Holland, to add to the list of things that are wrong. Holland had an opportunity to introduce a modern simple and customer friendly system, instead they managed to produce an overly complicated system which has done nothing but irritate everybody except the suburbanist.
What the Dutch have achieved a public transportation system which is often dirty, crowded and uncomfortable for long distances, often not much better than old Polish trains, with as main difference that in Poland the railways are affordable and customer service, while not always great, is at least existent.

Add to that that train staff walks around like they're paramilitaries, and while the whole system might work quite well for commuters, it seems simultaneously designed to fully utilize every single opportunity to f*ck tourists.

But hey, we visit the Netherlands once or twice a year because I've lived there in the 90's and still know a lot of people there. And their motorways are free, and among the best in Europe, if not the world. The NS is the best advertisement for car use among foreigners the Dutch could've come up with.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:56 PM   #2908
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What the Dutch have achieved a public transportation system which is often dirty, crowded and uncomfortable for long distances, often not much better than old Polish trains, with as main difference that in Poland the railways are affordable and customer service, while not always great, is at least existent.
So true

The whole system is run as a commuter network which is fine for people going short distances.
And although I appreciate the frequencys, going long distance on NS trains with luggage, prams or bikes is a nightmare, lack of space, stairs and the seating arrangments make the whole thing an unpleasant experience. Most of the toilets are still flaps to the track and never cleaned. Getting on the Berlin IC from Amsterdam is such a contrast to the NS equipment
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 01:51 PM   #2909
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What long distances? It's the Netherlands we're talking about.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 02:01 PM   #2910
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After utilizing trains in the UK, Italy and Belgium I can assure you that Dutch rail equipment is not so bad at all.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 02:34 PM   #2911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
What long distances? It's the Netherlands we're talking about.
Echt - Amsterdam, 180 km, 2:15 hr
Echt - Nijmegen, 98 km, 1:45 hr
Echt - Assen, 270 km, around 4 hours.

Seem like fairly long distances to me. But even between the larger cities, I looked up Eindhoven-Groningen, this takes 2:55 for 250 kilometres on just intercity trains. This compares to 2:45 for around 240 kilometres between say, Szczecin and Poznań, 2:20 for 170 kilometres between Lublin and Warszawa, or around 1:40 to 1:50 for the 180 kilometres between Częstochowa and Wrocław.

All of those are with regular intercities. I'm not going to compare Pendolino to those things they call "intercity" in the Netherlands.

The only thing in the Dutch railways can compete favourably with the Polish railways is frequency. In terms of speed it's a toss-up. In terms of rolling stock, comfort and price, PKP wins without even having to make an effort. When it comes down to customer service - well, I guess Michael O'Leary could learn from them to make his plane staff even nastier.
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Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:38 PM   #2912
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Quote:
After utilizing trains in the UK, Italy and Belgium I can assure you that Dutch rail equipment is not so bad at all.
I have to say its a mixed bag in those countrys, but in general the long distance trains in all of them have things like table, luggage storage, powerpoints clean toilets and reservations. The older crap tends to be used on communter or regional routes.

Quote:
What long distances? It's the Netherlands we're talking about.
I regularly travel between Amsterdam and Limburg with my family; and that is far too long a distance to travel in NS "Inter city" trains.
The whole system is just a countrywide commuter service.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 03:10 AM   #2913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
You can have more trains if they clear a section faster.
The opposite is true. Speed difference between trains is a big factor in rail track capacity. Quicker InterCity's results in a bigger speed difference with Sprinters and thus reduces capacity.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 03:31 AM   #2914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoshiAmsterdam View Post
The opposite is true. Speed difference between trains is a big factor in rail track capacity. Quicker InterCity's results in a bigger speed difference with Sprinters and thus reduces capacity.
With 4 tracks, you can run trains at different speeds without any capacity penalty.

I think they should widen the railway between Houten and Best ASAP, to create a 4-track link Amsterdam-Eindhoven.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 09:54 AM   #2915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoshiAmsterdam View Post
The opposite is true. Speed difference between trains is a big factor in rail track capacity. Quicker InterCity's results in a bigger speed difference with Sprinters and thus reduces capacity.
Another big disrupting factor is (lack of) acceleration. There is a need for running freight trains in between the passenger services. They are in a difficult balance there, because for several reasons you can't simply move those freight trains to nightly hours.

The biggest problem is actually, that you don't have a problem as long as everything runs on time in their assigned slot. But as soon as any train is delayed for whatever reason everything goes south very quickly.

You can solve this by adding more overtaking tracks, but they have to be long enough so that a train doesn't have to slow down on the main track already.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 01:42 PM   #2916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
With 4 tracks, you can run trains at different speeds without any capacity penalty.

I think they should widen the railway between Houten and Best ASAP, to create a 4-track link Amsterdam-Eindhoven.
So not only should speed increase to 200 kph, but 4 tracks as well. Sounds nice, but not realistic financially. 4 Tracks make sense if there is a capacity problem, with a possible added benefit of faster trains. Just saving a few minutes on itself isn't worth billions.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 02:09 PM   #2917
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So instead you could take four other measures:
  • Make freight trains faster (120-140 km/h?)
  • Make freight trains accelerate faster (multiple locomotives?)
  • Make local trains accelerate faster (a German BR425 has almost twice the power of a Dutch SLT!)
  • Improved signalling (ERTMS L2/L3)
All could be achieved by more powerful EMUs and locomotives. This requires stepping up the overhead wire voltage to at least 3 kV DC, but preferably to 25 kV AC. But unfortunately this is expensive too.
Work on ERTMS has already started, but progress is on a snail's pace.
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Last edited by M-NL; September 24th, 2015 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Added signalling improvement
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Old September 24th, 2015, 02:34 PM   #2918
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A lot of effort is being made to make freight trains interoperable between EU-countries. To make specific changes to the way fright trains run for a short stretch of Dutch rail would nullify those efforts and hurt the competitiveness of rail freight.

With ERTMS and the voltage it's the same as the 4-tracks: just a slight speed increase on itself doesn't justify huge investments. ERTMS is being implemented because there are also safety, capacity and interoperability advantages. 25 kV doesn't work with the current safety system (ATB), so before that would be possible ERTMS implementation needs to be finished.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 03:17 PM   #2919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
  • Make freight trains faster (120-140 km/h?)
  • Make freight trains accelerate faster (multiple locomotives?)
Yes and no: because better acceleration is always a good thing, but the point is to have those trains not stopping at all.


As long as IC trains keep a Vmax of 140-160 their average speed will be around 100-120... which is perfect for letting freight trains run in between (not at block distance, of course).
I would try to shave some of the stopping time, for example with wider doors and aisles. VIRMs are not that good under this aspect, the doors are rather tiny, and the internal passages are not that wide too. They're improving this by widening the stairs, but still the flow of passengers is slow.
Same for the ICM... while NID's cars are much better.

I see that usually, in Europe, IC/IR and most freight trains have similar average speeds (well, usually), but local trains never fit in well.
Here good acceleration is essential, but in crowded corridors, if you want frequent services, extra tracks are the only way to go (maybe just 3, if the local timetable allows for 1-track operations).
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Last edited by Wilhem275; September 24th, 2015 at 03:24 PM.
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Old September 24th, 2015, 07:39 PM   #2920
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Better positioning of the doors themselves would help, too. If the doors would be on 1/3rd and 2/3rd of a coach, dwell times would be reduced due to better passenger distribution. Of course this isn't feasible with the double deck stock, but on ICNG (which will be single deck) it should be doable.
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