daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:00 PM   #3161
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

As there is a long term idea to convert the whole Dutch network to 3 kV DC or 25 kV AC, would it be better to choose one of these two alternatives to electrify these lines? Sure, they would be more difficult to manage at the beginning, but the conversion would not be easy and quick either, and it should start at some point.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:02 PM   #3162
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,357
Likes (Received): 791

The line is being electrified as we speak (every evening) and yes that is likely to happen. However there is still a lot of speculation.
In the Dutch topic the lines around Limburg where mentioned, as they are isolated and connected to the belgium 3kV network. But again, nothing is planned (or a time line given) at the moment.
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:41 PM   #3163
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21244

I think they should start upgrading to 25 kV AC at the same time they will implement ERTMS on each line.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 2nd, 2016, 11:57 PM   #3164
rolabol
Roland Bol
 
rolabol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Cunit this winter, Uppsala
Posts: 3
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think they should start upgrading to 25 kV AC at the same time they will implement ERTMS on each line.
I don't expect this will happen, as it would imply raising every structure (viaduct) over the railway. It's just too costly.

Engines that can handle different voltages are no longer the problem. The problem is that the power supply around big stations like Utrecht may be insufficient: if too many trains start at the same time, the voltage may drop below the safety threshold.
rolabol no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 3rd, 2016, 09:22 AM   #3165
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Starting trains aren't as much a problem as it used to be, in the sense that in the past some train types could make the overhead voltage drop to below 1000V (except for the driver, the 1200 has no under voltage protection whatsoever!), causing other types low voltage safety systems to kick in. Nowadays the power electronics have voltage/current curves built in, so when the voltage drops they have to limit traction current.

Of course switching to 3kV will ease this problem even more, even when you only switch from [email protected] to [email protected] Note that at 3 kV the nominal voltage is about 3.3kV instead of the 3.6kV allowed. That extra 0.3kV headroom is the reason why you can recover more energy when using 3kV.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 3rd, 2016, 08:56 PM   #3166
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1036

A picture of the new FLIRT for NS at the stadler site in poland.

link
__________________
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 3rd, 2016, 10:42 PM   #3167
The Polman
Registered User
 
The Polman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Tilburg
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 795



I see, the distinction between the NS-Flirt and the other one (was it for Hungary?) is clearly made as the blue line is smaller at the bottom and the gray one is minimal at the bottom too, more white.

Coming back at the voltage discussion, there has never been made an official statement but two years ago ProRail started a research for 3kV. The reason for 3kV is quite more obvious than changing towards AC because of Belgium and the existing infrastructure. And the trains itself as you can see in the picture above .
The Polman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2016, 04:47 AM   #3168
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21244

How much extra clearance does 25kV AC actually require?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2016, 08:45 AM   #3169
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

The NEN-EN50110 norm contains a table with required distances. Roughly speaking the minimal safety distance to prevent a current arc is 10mm per kV + 150mm (thus making it 165mm for 1.5kV and 400mm for 25kV). The minimal allowed supervised working distance is the minimum safety distance + 1000mm (making it 1165mm for 1.5kV and 1400mm for 25kV).

So the answer to your question: About 235mm extra, which can be quite prohibitive when you're dealing with low clearance infrastructural element such as a tunnel or a viaduct.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.

Suburbanist liked this post
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2016, 11:00 PM   #3170
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,978
Likes (Received): 836

So is there a list or map showing all the structures requiring to be modified to meet that 1400mm?
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2016, 12:18 AM   #3171
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,357
Likes (Received): 791

I doubt it, because there is no full scale plan yet. I suppose there are stats about bridges, but they are not public.

A lot of new projects are however being prepared with a new type of cantenary system. Which is prepared for 25kV.
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2016, 12:47 AM   #3172
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,978
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
A lot of new projects are however being prepared with a new type of cantenary system. Which is prepared for 25kV.
It used to be a requirement to use B4 catenary (capable of 25kV) for new sections and replacement of old catenary, but I believe that requirement was dropped a while ago (can't find the source).

I have seen some recent new catenary that didn't seem to be of the B4 or other 25kV-compatible type.
Silly_Walks está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2016, 01:14 AM   #3173
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,357
Likes (Received): 791

Indeed, Zwolle-Wierden for example isn't wired with B4
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2016, 04:19 PM   #3174
The Polman
Registered User
 
The Polman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Tilburg
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 795

that's sad to hear. But do the wires now being installed meet requirements for 3kV?
The Polman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2016, 05:11 PM   #3175
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,357
Likes (Received): 791

No because again there is only a potential test of 3kV. As said the goverment plan used to be to prepare the wires for 25kV, but that requirement seems to be dropped.
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2016, 02:58 PM   #3176
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I see there are some works between Almere Poort and Centrum, but they might just be noise barriers (may they be damned).

There's also something bigger going on just east of Almere Centrum, what's that? It looks like a proper widening to 4 tracks, but just for a brief section.

https://www.google.it/maps/@52.37630.../data=!3m1!1e3
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 15th, 2016, 07:18 AM   #3177
Bobo90
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 10

They're building a tailtrack
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Bobo90 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2016, 07:05 PM   #3178
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1036

Some interior shot taken bij Railmagazine of the new NS Flirt.
It looks al lot like the interior used for the caf SNG.







https://railmagazine.nl/wp-content/u...3/MF6_8492.jpg

Construction of the new flirt's.
__________________

dimlys1994 liked this post
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 03:26 PM   #3179
Theijs
Registered User
 
Theijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 133

ProRail is lobbying to increase voltage from 1,5 Kv to 3 Kv. Estimated costs € 700 million.
Source: http://www.nu.nl/ondernemen/4233063/...ter-spoor.html
__________________

Richard_P liked this post
Theijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2016, 03:44 PM   #3180
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21244

That is a massive cop-out from plans to go to 25kV AC
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium