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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:01 AM   #301
AlexNL
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So far there is only 1 line in the Netherlands that has ERTMS installed: the track section between Amsterdam Bijlmer ArenA and Utrecht Centraal. After lots of delays and technical problems, Bombardier finally got it working. Now there's next to no rolling stock available that can use ERTMS.

10 SLT trains and 10 VIRM trainsets will be fitted with the necessary ERTMS-equipment, for test runs. Furthermore, the ICE-3 trainsets will be retrofitted with ERTMS. Last week, ICE-3 4610 was making rounds through the Netherlands to test ETCS balises. I've snapped a picture of the ICE-3 as it entered Breda:

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ICE 4610 ("Frankfurt am Main&quot uit Roosendaal by Alex van Herwijnen, on Flickr
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:11 AM   #302
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Isn't HSL-Zuid fitted with ERTMS?
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:27 AM   #303
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Isn't HSL-Zuid fitted with ERTMS?
I think he's talking about the "regular" rail system.

HSL-Zuid and the Betuwelijn both are equipped with ERTMS, but no regular trains run on those lines.

The Hanzelijn will also have ERTMS alongside the national signalling system, but that line won't be in service until december 2012.


By the way Alex, is anything known about the timeline on those 10 SLTs and VIRMs? And will it change the schedule or travel time at all (assuming trains will be able to go 160 km/h between Bijlmer and Utrecht, and can ride with smaller gaps in between).
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 07:31 AM   #304
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This may seem true on the short term, as it saves money. However, it costs more money on the longer term, because...
If it doesn't make sense "in the longer term" why are there so many railways that use different overhead systems? SNCF and NMBS both have parts of their network AC and DC. SNCF has been "two system" for decades.

Quote:
- Two seperate energy networks need to be maintained (1,5 kV DC and 25 kV AC)
No, you don't need to have two differnet energy networks. You even don't need one network. You need to maintain at least two types of substations (one for AC and one for DC, but I expect that any sizeable railway will have more than two types of substations), that both obtain their current directly from the commercial HVAC network. Only if you run your AC at a funny frequency like the Germans and some others do you need your own network. It's interesting that Denmark too choose to electrify at 25Kv 50Hz even though all their neighbours use 16 1/6 Hz...

Quote:
- Train operators need to keep either their rolling stock seperated, or buy bicurrent rolling stock. This is a big investment as well
AC/DC stock is not that much more expensive than pure AC stock. All modern AC stock is actually DC stock with an added transformer and rectifier. All that is needed to make an AC locomotive or trainset DC capable is an extra current collector and some switches and cables, plus something to keep it from switching to DC mode when under AC catenary. SNCF has decades of experience there.

In the future it will become even more trivial to make multi current rolling stock. Have you noticed how light your mobile phone charger has become? Did you know that, even though the label might say "110V or 230V 50/60Hz) it is usually capable of taking anything between about 90 and 250V, at any frequency up to about 200Hz or so, and even will happily run on DC!

Now just scale that up using power semiconductors... In the future locomotives and trainsets won't even need a big transformer anymore to run under AC.

Quote:
- The Betuweroute and HSL-Zuid have shown that the 25 kV AC has negative implications on adjacent tracks, more specifically EMC-related problems with the safety systems (ATB).
ATB will have to be replaced anyway.


Quote:
In my opinion, the best thing to do is go for nationwide 25 kV with ERTMS Level 2. It's the future, anyway. Countries around us are doing research or even full-scale implementations. Denmark is taking the lead, they want to be on nationwide ERTMS Level 2 within 10 years from now.
Denmark has a mostly unelectrified network. If you are starting (mostly) from scratch you can do a lot. Anyway, Luxemburg is going al ETCS too, and so is Switzerland, although they are approaching it a bit differently.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 10:54 AM   #305
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10 years? OMG, that is a lot of time.

Netherlands shoud embark in a conversion program during 5 years, raising trackage fees to pay for part of it and having ProRail taking debt to finance the rest.
If there was ever a post that proved how little Suburbanist actually knows about railways.....
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 11:53 AM   #306
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If there was ever a post that proved how little Suburbanist actually knows about railways.....
Dude, he is in EVERY thread. He knows EVERYTHING.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 02:38 PM   #307
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Breaking up rail network will reduce delays, says rail operator

Breaking up rail network will reduce delays, says rail operator

Quote:
Breaking up the national rail network into separate chunks and putting services out to tender will reduce delays, according to research by network operator ProRail quoted in Thursday's Volkskrant.

This is because services will not be so interdependent, reducing the domino effect of delays, ProRail is quoting as saying.

Earlier, researchers at Erasmus University in Rotterdam calculated dividing up the railway network into smaller franchises would save the government €210m. That research was carried out at the request of private rail operators, the paper says.

Private rail firms such as Arriva and Connexxion are angry that the state-owned NS was given a 10 year operating licence in 2005. They currently offer rail services on the network fringes only but are lobbying hard to have the system changed.

Transport minister Melanie Schultz has pledged to publish her proposals for the post 2015 railway system 'after the summer'.
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 07:09 PM   #308
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I copied this from the Danish rail thread:

[img]http://i53.************/15ml100.jpg[/img]
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Old September 2nd, 2011, 10:25 PM   #309
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And ProRail has already officially taken distance from the article in Volkskrant, as can be found on their website (Dutch). ProRail states that they investigated if the proposed timetable is possible, not if it would lessen delays. ProRail concludes the proposed timetable is viable, with some infrastructural adjustments.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 12:10 AM   #310
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Thanks for the info.

In any case, I think breaking up NS in 6 different franchises would be a good thing, regardless of which timetable will be operated:

- one for InterCity trains
- one for local trains within the Amsterdam-Haalem-Den Haag-Rotterdam-Gouda-Utrecht-Amersfoort ring
- one for regional trains in Noord Brabant and Zeeland
- one for regional trains in Limburg, Overjissel and Gelderland
- one for regional trains in Noord Holland, Utrecht and Zuid Holland not covered on the second one
- one for regional trains in Frisland, Groningen and Drenthe

This would exclude currently leased lines and HSL Zuid.

That way, we could have, for instance, Virgin Netherlands Trains, more Veolia-operated trains, DB-operated trains etc.

But all of this is on the realist side. I'd rather see the liberalization of Dutch railway market for InterCity trains at least.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 05:03 AM   #311
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In my opinion, the HSL-Zuid should be integrated with the rest of the intercity network, and not operated as a seperate line. The current situation is that the HSL is in hands of a different company (altho it belongs to NS Groep N.V.) and that alone gives enough problems when a Fyra or Thalys train breaks down.

At least now passengers can easily change trains and use Fyra or the conventional route when there's a disruption on the other route. If HSL-Zuid would be tendered to a different party than the one operating the regular InterCity services, this flexibility is definitely gone.

On the other hand, competition on Amsterdam - Schiphol - Rotterdam would make sure to keep the direct IC connection (which takes 20 minutes longer but is cheaper) intact, instead of sacrificing it for more Fyra trains.

Furthermore, I pretty much agree with your plan: tendering the intercity net seperately from regional trains gives more power to the local authorities, who can then in turn focus on realizing passenger growth by doing more integration between local transport and train transport, as opposed to competing with rail services. In the end, this might result in a growth of regional public transport usage (both bus and regional rail), acting as a feeder to the intercity net.

However, splitting up the railway network into smaller franchises needs a regulating body that oversees quality of services provided throughout the network, that passengers can complain to.

Also, some of the services currently provided by NS should be handed over to an independant body. To mind comes the distribution of tickets and passes, travel information, perhaps even management of railway stations and property around it.
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Old September 3rd, 2011, 08:30 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
In my opinion, the HSL-Zuid should be integrated with the rest of the intercity network, and not operated as a seperate line. The current situation is that the HSL is in hands of a different company (altho it belongs to NS Groep N.V.) and that alone gives enough problems when a Fyra or Thalys train breaks down.
Well, I think one could consider even breaking the IC network in two or three groups, and making HSL Zuid part of one of those groups.
The main purpose of this breakup would not be to have them compete for passengers (we keep tariffs integrated) but to be able to benchmark them agains each other. That is the only way to find out what the right amount of subsidie or concession charge is.

Parallel to that one could free the bus market. Let the low end of the market be served by cheap long distance buses, just like in the UK.
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Old September 17th, 2011, 09:16 AM   #313
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Changes for 2012 timetable

- Amsterdam-Vlissingen InterCity trains will go via Haarlem
- New Den Haag (Centraal)-Schiphol-Amsterdam Zuid-Lelystaad InterCity will start
- there will be no longer Rotterdam - Amsterdam trains via Schiphol on the old line.

here is the new operating scheme on the area, concerning many relations: (p/u = per hour)

Quote:
Nieuwe kwartierdiensten:
• Dordrecht – Haarlem – Amsterdam. 4x p/u Intercity
• Den Haag CS – Schiphol. 4x p/u Intercity
• Dordrecht – Rotterdam – Den Haag CS. 4x p/u Sprinter
• Den Haag CS – Leiden. 4x p/u Sprinter
• Leiden – Hoofddorp. 4x p/u Sprinter in de spits
• Amsterdam – Haarlem. 4x p/u Sprinter
And the new high-speed service relations subject to enter in operation of Fyra trains
Quote:
NS Hispeed 2012 (afhankelijk van het tempo van instroom van de nieuwe
hogesnelheidstreinen):
• Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Breda 2x p/u Fyra
• Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Antwerpen – Brussel Zuid 1x p/u Fyra
There are also 10 daily Thalys services Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Bruxelles Midi-Paris G. du Nord that can be used to travel between Netherlands and Belgium.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:25 AM   #314
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Bruxelles-Midi-Maastricht trains are also canceled as from December 2011. Trains will run only until Visè.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 02:01 PM   #315
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Yess, that's also a way to make the HSL a succes just cancel al the much cheaper raillines.
Would not be very bad if you where allowed to grap the rotterdam-amsterdam hsl for the price of a normal ticket.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #316
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Yess, that's also a way to make the HSL a succes just cancel al the much cheaper raillines.
Would not be very bad if you where allowed to grap the rotterdam-amsterdam hsl for the price of a normal ticket.
That way you are bankrupting HSA! It's impossible for HSA to fulfill its obligations if, indirectly, its source of resources on supplements is scrapped.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 04:51 PM   #317
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From what I've understood, HSA gets the full price for each trip over the high speed line, meaning the sum price of an NS ticket + Fyra supplement. That's why it's easy for NS to have their passengers use the Fyra free of charge when there's a disruption on the classic routes, they simply shift some money around (from NS Reizigers to HSA) and pay the supplements for the passengers.

In other news: today, passenger organisation Maatschappij Voor Beter OV has filed a formal complaint with the Nederlandse Mededingingsautoriteit (the Dutch authority that oversees competition), citing the fact that existing NS Reizigers-trains will be slowed down by as much as 10 minutes, and all direct links between Rotterdam and Schiphol that aren't Fyra will be cut at Leiden. Voor Beter OV says this is harmful to passengers, as their alternative to the more expensive Fyra service gets worse.

The full complaint can be found on www.voorbeterov.nl, it's in Dutch however.
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 03:02 PM   #318
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Zonal strip fare cards abolished today; paper ticket on trams to be terminated Dec. 2012

As from today, the strippenkaart, a crappy zone-based stamp fare car is abolished throughout the country, thank God. That outdated system is gone for good. It was once used on all trams, buses, subways and on some limited train routes within metro areas.

It is also reported that since this deadline has been met, NS will abolish paper rail tickets for domestic travel in December 2012, being the first European country to achieve this remarkable feat.

Only the RFID-based OV-Chipkaart will be valid, then. All domestic passes and subscriptions are already tied to the OV-Chipkaart.

Meanwhile, installation of fare gates in a number of stations is progressing. I read that by mid-2013 about 60-65% of passenger movements (entry/exit) to/from stations will be made through fare gates. Though stations covered by the gates will still be a minority, they account for a large share of passenger traffic.
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 03:37 PM   #319
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For such a small country it's easy to replace paper tickets... And to be honest the main reason is to save money spending on paper cause paper tickets are not goedkoopste at all.

Meanwhile, it's very easy to forget check-uit and then you need spend a lot of time in NS ticket office to claim your money back...
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Old November 3rd, 2011, 08:00 PM   #320
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As from today, the strippenkaart, a crappy zone-based stamp fare car is abolished throughout the country, thank God. That outdated system is gone for good. It was once used on all trams, buses, subways and on some limited train routes within metro areas.
Unfortunately, a completely outdated prehistoric mode of transportation, one that involves people actually operating vehicles themselves, on non controlled guideways, at speeds far to high in relation to their reaction speed still dominates. Time that this archaic system gets abolished for good too.

No really. The strippenkaart was simple, elegant, cheap to implement. Adding technology to fix something that isn't broken is not progress.
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