daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:10 PM   #3321
sven_engelen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16
Likes (Received): 7

That is a good idea though, but only if there will be a sprinter line between Venlo and Eindhoven so the Intercity doesn't have to stop at Blerick, Horst-Sevenum and Deurne all the time...
sven_engelen no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:42 PM   #3322
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,465
Likes (Received): 6164

If you think that's bad, try reaching Vlissingen by train.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:59 PM   #3323
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by sven_engelen View Post
That is a good idea though, but only if there will be a sprinter line between Venlo and Eindhoven so the Intercity doesn't have to stop at Blerick, Horst-Sevenum and Deurne all the time...
Currently, all Intercity trains already stop in all these stations (and also in Helmond). The trip takes 39 minutes between Eindhoven and Venlo. I don't envision that changing.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 02:02 PM   #3324
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
If you think that's bad, try reaching Vlissingen by train.
Zeeland provincial government chose to have the IC stop at all stations west of Bergen op Zoom instead of having some minor stations with little use closed OR financing a local sprinter train. The overall message here is that cities located at the extreme ends of the country suffer by not having faster connections to key rail hubs. Happens to affect Vlissingen, Enschede, Heerlen... At least Zealand has an electrified line instead of the diesel railways providing service to places like Venray, Harlingen or Sneek.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; September 1st, 2016 at 02:09 PM.
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 03:11 PM   #3325
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,359
Likes (Received): 792

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I read somewhere they want to swap IC routes so that there will be IC Venlo_ schiphol (instead of Den Haag) and IC Den Haag (instead of schiphol) - Maastricht /Heerlen
I believe the routes will be:
(Alkmaar) -Amsterdam - Eindhoven - Maastricht
Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid - Eindhoven - Venlo/Heerlen (split train)

Den Haag - Rotterdam - High speed line - Breda - Eindhoven

In future a 5th and 6th intercity will take the Venlo branch, eliminating the split in Eindhoven.

The Eindhoven-Den Haag and Venlo/Heerlen - Schiphol will offer cross-platform connections at Eindhoven.
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 03:38 PM   #3326
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,465
Likes (Received): 6164

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Zeeland provincial government chose to have the IC stop at all stations west of Bergen op Zoom instead of having some minor stations with little use closed OR financing a local sprinter train. The overall message here is that cities located at the extreme ends of the country suffer by not having faster connections to key rail hubs. Happens to affect Vlissingen, Enschede, Heerlen... At least Zealand has an electrified line instead of the diesel railways providing service to places like Venray, Harlingen or Sneek.
I am aware. I worked for the provincial government around the time that this was decided. I argued against it and felt the smaller stations should be closed as per the initial suggestion from NS.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 10:57 PM   #3327
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I am aware. I worked for the provincial government around the time that this was decided. I argued against it and felt the smaller stations should be closed as per the initial suggestion from NS.
So you got yourself attacked by those lovely people who believe it's their right to live alone and far from everything AND have frequent and direct services to anywhere?
Been there, done that

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
I believe the routes will be:
(Alkmaar) -Amsterdam - Eindhoven - Maastricht
Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid - Eindhoven - Venlo/Heerlen (split train)

Den Haag - Rotterdam - High speed line - Breda - Eindhoven

In future a 5th and 6th intercity will take the Venlo branch, eliminating the split in Eindhoven.

The Eindhoven-Den Haag and Venlo/Heerlen - Schiphol will offer cross-platform connections at Eindhoven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I read somewhere they want to swap IC routes so that there will be IC Venlo_ schiphol (instead of Den Haag) and IC Den Haag (instead of schiphol) - Maastricht /Heerlen
I found this NS image, but it's not clear about what goes where past Eindhoven:


My best guess is that the Schiphol will go to Venlo (yellow line) and the two remaing A'dam CS will proceed to the south.
Probably they'll all be distanced 10-10-10, to give a regular offer between Amsterdam and Eindhoven (with one out of three with a connection in Utrecht).

I remember AlexNL mentioned the DH-Eindhoven via HSL, but I believed that was going to happen with the new Alstom IC.
But that train was supposed to terminate in Eindhoven, while the Venlo branch was to be given to something else (from Amsterdam or Schiphol, then).
It makes sense, Venlo has no connection to Amsterdam today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
This is going to happen after December this year!
The controversial thing is that the Benelux will be slower then it was before the HSL/Fyra era.
So, it means Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - HSL - Antwerpen?

About it being slower, I often hear this complaint about many IC services all over Europe, but to me it's completely normal than a "historical" IC stops being very fast after a parallel HS service is introduced.
If one is interested in reduced travel times from Amsterdam to Brussel, that train is no more the answer.
Actually, since a faster option will be offered to Schiphol and Amsterdam, I'd have the IC Brussel stop in Leiden, Lan van NOI and Delft too. The time difference with a normal IC is so ridiculous* that it makes no sense to cut out relevant basins.

*I just checked. It's very ridiculous: despite having FIVE less stops, and being capable of 160 km/h between Hoofddorp and Mariahove, from Schiphol to Dordrecht the IC Brussel is 2' slower than the usual Vlissingen IC Now that is something to complain about!

For 2017, I quote from infrasite.nl:
Quote:
De grootste veranderingen op een rij
  • Dankzij de oplevering van het project OV Saal rijden er vanaf december 2016 meer NS-treinen tussen Almere/Lelystad en Schiphol en tussen Amsterdam Centraal en Breukelen
  • Dankzij aanpassingen van sporen in Assen kan er vanaf mei 2017 een nieuwe NS spitstrein rijden tussen Groningen – Assen.
  • Er is reistijdverbetering van de intercity Leeuwarden naar de randstad door kortere halteertijd in Zwolle en er is reistijdverbetering Intercity Zwolle – Roosendaal tussen Arnhem en Nijmegen.
  • Nieuwe treindienst Arnhem – Emmerich – Oberhausen - Düsseldorf (Abellio).
  • Arriva is de nieuwe vervoerder in Limburg op de trajecten Nijmegen – Roermond, Roermond – Maastricht Randwyck, Sittard – Kerkrade en Heerlen – Maastricht Randwyck. Er gaan meer treinen rijden tussen Maastricht – Maastricht Randwyck.


Of which the Arnhem - Düsseldorf is actually the most interesting thing, it fills a HUGE hole in Germany - NL connections!
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; September 1st, 2016 at 11:17 PM.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 11:25 PM   #3328
sven_engelen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Currently, all Intercity trains already stop in all these stations (and also in Helmond). The trip takes 39 minutes between Eindhoven and Venlo. I don't envision that changing.
Well, i have to take the train to Helmond every each day. The intercity goes from Venlo to Eindhoven. A sprinter services the small stations between deurne and Eindhoven. If the sprinter goes all the way to Venlo, the intercity is able to skip all small stations and go all the way to venlo in 30 or even less mins instead of 40
sven_engelen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2016, 11:53 PM   #3329
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I remember AlexNL mentioned the DH-Eindhoven via HSL, but I believed that was going to happen with the new Alstom IC.
But that train was supposed to terminate in Eindhoven, while the Venlo branch was to be given to something else (from Amsterdam or Schiphol, then).
It makes sense, Venlo has no connection to Amsterdam today.
No, re-routing the IC Den Haag - Venlo to R'Dam [HSL] - Breda is already planned to start later this year. The discussion is whether these trains will already take over trains currently routed Schiphol-Utrecht-Maastricht/Heerlen.

I'm not sure they'd like to make them split trains as another colleague mentioned. They got rid of train splitting in Sittard couple years ago. Moreover, these trains going via HSL use just locos. They are not EMUs so splitting them would take quite a time. It is better just to use the current scheme of matching each IC to either Maastricht or Heerlen to another train waiting there for the other destination.

Quote:
So, it means Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - HSL - Antwerpen?
Yes. I wonder how long reversing in Breda would take. It would be more interesting, now that Breda station is finished and ready, to have this international train from Belgium terminate in Breda, with ready connections to other fast trains from there.

I write this because these trains to/from Belgium appear to get delayed very often. When this happen, from what I noticed, the practice is now held them even later as not to disrupt the congested paths between R'dam and Dordrecht, which are heavily used by freight trains as well.

Quote:
*I just checked. It's very ridiculous: despite having FIVE less stops, and being capable of 160 km/h between Hoofddorp and Mariahove, from Schiphol to Dordrecht the IC Brussel is 2' slower than the usual Vlissingen IC Now that is something to complain about!
The IC-Brussels train stay on platforms for a significantly longer time than regular intercity trains. I've noticed it in Schiphol, in Den Haag HS and Rotterdam C.

I think they should have built HSL slightly different, with a deep tunnel (following the metro tunnel of Randstad rail) that build transversal platforms underneath Rotterdam Centraal in a NW-SE alignment, and then extended with deep tunnels all the way to Barendrecht (where the HSL starts). This would have been feasible, and would have speed up trains up to 8 min! And Rotterdam would be a 2-level station (exc. the Randstad Rail platforms).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:25 AM   #3330
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,465
Likes (Received): 6164

You have an odd definition of the word feasible.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:40 AM   #3331
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
You have an odd definition of the word feasible.
They did something similar in Antwerpen (if shorter) and London (different scope).

Do you think a deep bored tunnel (60m below surface) would have been unfeasible in Rotterdam?
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:26 AM   #3332
Theijs
Registered User
 
Theijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Do you think a deep bored tunnel (60m below surface) would have been unfeasible in Rotterdam?
Don't forget the existing metro under R'dam CS. And such a deep and long tunnel for 8 minutes time saving? I guess it will have a negative cost/benefit ratio to justify the financial investment.
Theijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:34 AM   #3333
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

And the fact that the Willemsspoortunnel is already an investment that must be used. And the fact that a separate HSL-tunnel would not allow cross-platform connections or any other routing (Rotterdam also allows for potential HSL-Zuid - Utrecht paths).

And the fact that Antwerpen had a slightly bigger limit than Rotterdam...
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:37 AM   #3334
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.

Speaking of it, did the tracks at now defunct hofplein station of randstad rail connected with the Dordretch line before they built the tunnel under the Maas?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; September 2nd, 2016 at 11:47 AM.
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:45 AM   #3335
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

But still very far from saturation. Today, max 14 t/h + some freight, over 4 tracks. In comparison, the Schiphol tunnel is exploding
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:15 PM   #3336
thtc
Registered User
 
thtc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 66
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.

Speaking of it, did the tracks at now defunct hofplein station of randstad rail connected with the Dordretch line before they built the tunnel under the Maas?

There has never been a connection between the Hofpleinline and the Dordrecht line at the level of Hofplein station, but only in Rotterdam North via the Utrecht line tot Rotterdam Cetral (with potential onward connection in the direction of Dordrecht).
thtc no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:42 PM   #3337
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.
I see now you added some info later. In general, keep in mind that capacity should never be valued in terms of trains per day. At least trains per hour; even better every half hour (since NS has a 30' repetitive schedule).

As of today, every 30' there are at most:
2 IC (Den Haag) - (Dordrecht)
2 Sprinters
1 IC Den Haag - Venlo
1 IC Direct to Breda
1 IC Brussel
1 Thalys
+ some freights.

At Dordrecht there are less passenger trains (and they will be even less) but there's probably much more freight traffic, south of Kijfhoek.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:44 PM   #3338
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,465
Likes (Received): 6164

Kijfhoek is pretty hopeless: freight trains from the sea port of Vlissingen that wanna go to Antwerp, have to go to Kijfhoek and turn around.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 08:02 PM   #3339
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I see now you added some info later. In general, keep in mind that capacity should never be valued in terms of trains per day. At least trains per hour; even better every half hour (since NS has a 30' repetitive schedule).

As of today, every 30' there are at most:
2 IC (Den Haag) - (Dordrecht)
2 Sprinters
1 IC Den Haag - Venlo
1 IC Direct to Breda
1 IC Brussel
1 Thalys
+ some freights.

At Dordrecht there are less passenger trains (and they will be even less) but there's probably much more freight traffic, south of Kijfhoek.
Don't forget the Intercity Dordrecht-Amsterdam via Haarlem.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2016, 08:06 PM   #3340
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Kijfhoek is pretty hopeless: freight trains from the sea port of Vlissingen that wanna go to Antwerp, have to go to Kijfhoek and turn around.
Why can't they turn around in Roosendaal. There is so much idle space there.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium