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Old November 3rd, 2011, 08:19 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
U
No really. The strippenkaart was simple, elegant, cheap to implement. Adding technology to fix something that isn't broken is not progress.
Let's bring back hand-written air tickets then?

They implemented the OV-Chipkaart for 4 basic reasons:

1) Massively improve data collection to help planning transportation networks, schedules, fleet etc. The OV Chipkaart allows cheap identification, even in remote corners of Drenthe, of origin-destination matrices, usage level in each area/route, and aggregated travel patterns - something that previously required guesswork by drivers, or surveys -. To tackle the issue of pass/subscription holders, it was established they also must check in and out, regardless of having a month-long subscription, ensuring full data collection of riders.

2) Changing from a zone based to a distance based fare system. The zone system was growing increasingly complex, with many stops being part of two, sometimes three zones, and a perception of unfairness on short routes that crossed zone boundaries. It is estimated that the majority of users will be actually paying more for their journeys, but those paying less (around 40%) saw large reductions in their fares. This goal (distance-based charging) is laudable on itself, as it is fairer in a country with dispersed poli-centric metropolitan areas as NL. Conductors were often lenient with people paying the wrong fare, and it was often impossible to identify in a packed vehicle whether the right fare was charged.

3) Reducing fare evasion by implementing fare gates. Once the decision to put fare gates in major stations and subways was taken, it became clear the strippenkaart had to be retired and it made no sense to adopt lesser systems like magnetic-stripped tickets or tokens.

4) Allowing a more diversified fare system that encompasses many subscriptions and discount plans that can affect the fares, without substituting them.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 01:32 AM   #322
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The Strippenkaart was not elegant, and was most definitely not easy to use. I have tried to explain it to many foreigners, without much success. For most people the zones were very unclear and random.

I agree with Suburbanist on this one. Close the gates so you don't forget to check in and check out and the system will function great. It's also good because you can track your own travels. For my business administration that is a lot easier than trying to track it with separate tickets and Strippenkaarten. One card for all public transport in the country, and no need to buy a ticket ever again (I have it set to auto-charge). I think it's great.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 04:07 AM   #323
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I also think the OV-chipcard is a great step forward in theory.

There are some big drawbacks, however, that could be easily taken care of, but the people responsible for the card fail to listen.
One easy thing to implement is an anonymous OV-chipcard for children and seniors, similar to the pink strippenkaart. It's pure abuse of power to make children and seniors HAVE to register in order to get the discount they deserve.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 04:40 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Let's bring back hand-written air tickets then?
Yes please.
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Old November 4th, 2011, 04:44 PM   #325
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I agree with Suburbanist on this one. Close the gates so you don't forget to check in and check out and the system will function great.
But the gates will not be closed. They never will.

Quote:
It's also good because you can track your own travels.
Not only for you unfortunately.

Quote:
For my business administration that is a lot easier than trying to track it with separate tickets and Strippenkaarten. One card for all public transport in the country, and no need to buy a ticket ever again (I have it set to auto-charge). I think it's great.
You know what is good for business travel? The "General Abo" as it exists in Switzerland. One card valid on all public transport, that you pay with a yearly or monthly fee. No need to worry about tickets, about checking in. I had one such card for three years, and really had to get used to buying tickets again afterwads...

At a time where telecom utilities are abandonning metered access and going for flat fee pricing models public transit is increasingly doing the opposite. And that is progress?
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Old November 4th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #326
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We already have the "OV Jaarkaart" = "General Abo" for years, we also have the same kind of card just for the trains. And the point-to-point travelpass for that travel same route on a daily basis.

With the introduction of the OV Chip card the NS has also introduced a "weekend free" pass that gives you free travel in the weekends and 40% discount off peak hours on weekdays. Another new pass is the "off peak free" pass, that gives you unlimited free travel outside the peak hours.

You have to check in with your chip card to use this new services. also because it's the moment you check in that counts. For example, the morning peak hour is from 6:30~9:00, but if you check in at 6:28 your whole trip will be free.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 12:56 AM   #327
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Quote:
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You have to check in with your chip card to use this new services. also because it's the moment you check in that counts. For example, the morning peak hour is from 6:30~9:00, but if you check in at 6:28 your whole trip will be free.

But when they come to check your ticket, you will get a fine, because you are travelling during peak hours when you're not allowed to do so with the travel product you are using at that time.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 01:00 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks

But when they come to check your ticket, you will get a fine, because you are travelling during peak hours when you're not allowed to do so with the travel product you are using at that time.
Nope. No fine. The moment of check-in determines the fare.

Equally, if you check in at 8:58 you will pay full fare until you check out. Even when that's at 11:00.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 02:25 AM   #329
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How does it work with cross border journeys? Surely there are a lot of these in the Netherlands. Also I assume that Interrail and Eurail passes are still valid on trains? I have used disposable smart cards in Moscow and they work well, but seem like a lot of tech for a throwaway article.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 02:51 AM   #330
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Cross border traffic with the OV-chipkaart is not possible, as there are no check-out points across the border. Passengers are advised to use a paper ticket for their entire journey, even if they can travel for free on domestic Dutch trains. In that case, they're to buy a ticket with "NS-network for free" as option on the ticket vending machine. Eurail, Interrail and foreign passes (such as Eurostar's Any Dutch Station ticket) are still valid.

NS has not communicated about a possible solution for this problem yet, only that there will be staff on the major international railway stations to let passengers out, when the ticket gates have been closed.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:23 AM   #331
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I heard that DB will let NS install readers on the trains of the Enschede-Münster line.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You know what is good for business travel? The "General Abo" as it exists in Switzerland. One card valid on all public transport, that you pay with a yearly or monthly fee. No need to worry about tickets, about checking in. I had one such card for three years, and really had to get used to buying tickets again afterwads...
That RIFD chip-card already exist in Netherlands and cost something like € 470/month for all regular public transport in Netherlands. It also include supplements for travel on the ICE between Amsterdam, Utrecht and Arnhem, and I suppose also on Fyra.

Quote:
At a time where telecom utilities are abandonning metered access and going for flat fee pricing models public transit is increasingly doing the opposite. And that is progress?
Utilities abandoning metered access? When/where? The most trendy thing in retail electricity distribution are smart meters that charge according to the time of day/week, integrated with 'smart' appliances that help save energy. There is a push to make trash collection more "meterable" to reduce waste that goes to landfills.

Only telecom has gone for flat fees, and then because the marginal cost of providing basic services like voice calls is now ridiculously low.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #333
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I don't want a general Abo. What I mean by business travel is that sometimes I have to be in Utrecht for a meeting, and another time I have to be in Arnhem or The Hague. Not often enough or consistent enough to justify a general 'abo', but with the OV Chipkaart I don't have to get tickets either, just check in and out, and I can just print an overview of all my travels when I do my administration.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:19 AM   #334
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Only telecom has gone for flat fees, and then because the marginal cost of providing basic services like voice calls is now ridiculously low.
That's why I wrote about telecom. Telecom has in common with public transit that the marginal costs are low compared to the total cost.
Public transport planning in the Netherlands is largely supply side based, with services running allong a regular pattern, regardless of use. The marginal cost of an extra trip is, from the point of view of the operating company, essentially zero.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
With the introduction of the OV Chip card the NS has also introduced a "weekend free" pass that gives you free travel in the weekends and 40% discount off peak hours on weekdays. Another new pass is the "off peak free" pass, that gives you unlimited free travel outside the peak hours.
None of these new products however require a Chip card...
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:24 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
I don't want a general Abo. What I mean by business travel is that sometimes I have to be in Utrecht for a meeting, and another time I have to be in Arnhem or The Hague. Not often enough or consistent enough to justify a general 'abo', but with the OV Chipkaart I don't have to get tickets either, just check in and out, and I can just print an overview of all my travels when I do my administration.
Well, maybe the OV Jaarkaart is to expensive then in the Netherlands.

What happens when you forget the check out, or it fails? Especially since in NL you are also supposed to check out when getting of a bus.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 06:51 PM   #337
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Well, maybe the OV Jaarkaart is too expensive then in the Netherlands.
Is has to be priced high enough that it doesn't detract form NS revenues. You know, intercity train travel is not charity.

Quote:
What happens when you forget the check out, or it fails? Especially since in NL you are also supposed to check out when getting of a bus.
You are supposed to check out from every vehicle. Actually, the OV Chipkaart, when run on money balance (not a pass or subscription), works this way:

1. Check-in: basic fare withdrawn (€ 30/20 first/second class NS train full-fare, € 20/10 first/second class NS trains discounted, € 4 urban networks of trams/subway/buses/boats/ferries etc)

2. Check-out: the difference between the basic fare and the actual fare is charged/credited in your card. In case of trains, the maximum cap is half the price of a "dagkaart" (day ticket), which means journeys above 254km get charge at 254km only.

3a. Transfer: on national trains, you don't check in/out when transferring*, only on your points of boarding and alighting. On urban network, the fare has a fixed component (€ 0,70) that is charged on top of all kms traveled only once every 75 min, and you must check out of any vehicle. Then, if you transfer before 75min of first boarding, you don't get charged the fixed fare €0,70 again.

4. If you don't check-out, you lose whatever credit is left from the basic fare charged upon check in. If you then try to check-in at a transfer without having checked-out, the system will interpret that as an actual check-out, then you must wait 3 minutes to check-in again. In case of problems with the machine, you can fill a form and request a refund for excessive fare collected.

5. The cards have auto-reload options, so whenever its balance falls below a threshold, you get more money loaded in, so you just use your card and don't worry about loading it with money.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 09:59 PM   #338
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Such a system is a great way to discourage tourists who want an easy way to use public transport eg. while on a city trip.
If you visit a large city you just buy a ticket that is valid for the duration of your trip an that lets you travel in a predefined area without having to worry how much balance you have on your card.

I'm sure the tourist industry will soon demand for a system that meets the demands of their customers.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 10:13 PM   #339
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Products for tourists already exist.

The Rotterdam Welcome Card offers discounts of 25% and more at 54 attractions, museums, restaurants and places of entertainment in Rotterdam and 1, 2 or 3 days of unlimited travel with RET metro, tram and bus. ( Amsterdam has the city card.)
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Old November 7th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #340
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Amsterdam also has 24, 48 and 72h passes. They cost (I'm not sure) € 7,50, € 11 and € 14, and come on a the form of a disposable chipkaart.

Now they should do something to boos tourism in Amsterdam: build more freaking parking lots in the central area! It costs at least € 25/day (pre-book), as much as € 70/day to leave your car there! Unnaceptable. But that is other topic, not railways.
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