daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 29th, 2016, 10:10 PM   #3401
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,467
Likes (Received): 6169

At this rate we should just convert the high speed railway line into a motorway. Revive the old A3 idea.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 29th, 2016, 10:18 PM   #3402
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21258

A3 should be built regardless of any rail link
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2016, 11:44 PM   #3403
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

The re-routing of the Beneluxtrein over the HSL and Breda is delayed by a whole year, because the manufacturer of said uprated freight locomotives (Bombardier) is unable to get their locomotives certified for use on the Belgian part of the high speed line. They're unable to get their ETCS implementation working on the Belgian infrastructure, which is different from the Dutch version.

Mind you: back in the summer of 2013 NS and SNCB promised that as of December 2016, the Beneluxtrein would use the HSL. This would be the "Fyra replacement" and it would finally give Breda the international link which has been promised for at least a decade. The railways and Bombardier have had more than 3 years to get this working, yet they can't deliver.

They're utterly useless and should be disenfranchised.
__________________
We are shaping the future

Silly_Walks, 3737, M-NL liked this post
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 02:22 PM   #3404
3737
Registered User
 
3737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Leiden
Posts: 1,406
Likes (Received): 1038

I Agree.
They should just give the franchise to Arriva.
The Fyra/Benelux + franchise should have had run years ago and still they can't get it to work.
It's a disgrace.

Also no Eurostar after December 2016.



Link
3737 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 02:40 PM   #3405
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21258

Do they have more TGV trainsets that could be adapted to run between Belgium and Netherlands, so they can retire the Benelux service and leave only a cross border Roosendal-Antwerpen regional train (as in the brief and hopeful weeks during which V250 was running up and down HSL in 2012-3?)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 02:47 PM   #3406
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The re-routing of the Beneluxtrein over the HSL and Breda is delayed by a whole year, because the manufacturer of said uprated freight locomotives (Bombardier) is unable to get their locomotives certified for use on the Belgian part of the high speed line. They're unable to get their ETCS implementation working on the Belgian infrastructure, which is different from the Dutch version.

Mind you: back in the summer of 2013 NS and SNCB promised that as of December 2016, the Beneluxtrein would use the HSL. This would be the "Fyra replacement" and it would finally give Breda the international link which has been promised for at least a decade. The railways and Bombardier have had more than 3 years to get this working, yet they can't deliver.

They're utterly useless and should be disenfranchised.
That the Dutch and Belgian parts of the HSL were built to different standards is a disgrace as well. It should have been built under the responsibility of a single project organisation.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2016, 07:50 PM   #3407
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That the Dutch and Belgian parts of the HSL were built to different standards is a disgrace as well. It should have been built under the responsibility of a single project organisation.
That would have been more beneficial for the construction and homologation of the HSL, but it wouldn't have taken away the problems that Bombardier is seeing now with ETCS. The HSL-Zuid was sort of a trial project for ETCS: the engineers ran into situations that haven't been seen before or that weren't even specified at all (such as the handover at the border).

And there is a benefit to this handover: a failure on one side of the border does not impact services on the other side of the border (except for through-services). If there would have been just one control centre (RBC) this would have been different.

The ETCS problems aren't limited to the HSL-Zuid either, the Swiss safety authority refuses to let TRAXX locomotives use the new Gotthard base tunnel after November, as they're of opinion that the software is not stable enough and will cause major disruption.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2016, 12:30 AM   #3408
suasion
Registered User
 
suasion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: New Sumplace
Posts: 823
Likes (Received): 1853

Quote:
(as in the brief and hopeful weeks during which V250 was running up and down HSL in 2012-3?)
Hopeful weeks, Are you for real? Try searching #fyrafail on twitter to remind yourself about the reality.
High speed rail should complement existing services. Instead it was chosen to get rid of connections that lots of people relied on to try and force them onto the Fyra for maximum profit. It was the same greed that caused them to by rubbish trainsets in the first place. Never has so much money been spent to reduce the quality of connectivity along a route.

The only hope is that someone will have learned for the debacle that was those few weeks and never try to foist such rubbish on the travelling public again
suasion no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2016, 11:15 AM   #3409
Theijs
Registered User
 
Theijs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 418
Likes (Received): 133

The fact is that because of all fails of cooperation, today, no train can run from Antwerpen via the HSL to Breda. Bus service is provided due to maintenance work...
Theijs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2016, 04:57 PM   #3410
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
... , but it wouldn't have taken away the problems that Bombardier is seeing now with ETCS. ...
I know that especially earlier versions of ETCS had a major hiatus in the specification where it came to specifying interfaces between subsystems. That resulted in a reality where every software update for every model of rolling stock has to be tested and certified to run on a certain route, which was never intended to happen. Maybe we have to admit they made ETCS a bit to complex.

In case of Bombardier, because most of their rolling stock has to operate on tracks equipped by other manufacturers, there is bound to be some trouble left and right. Bombardier however, being the second largest train manufacturer in the world, should have solved them long ago and they still haven't. They should be very ashamed.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2016, 05:25 PM   #3411
btrs
Registered User
 
btrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 57
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The re-routing of the Beneluxtrein over the HSL and Breda is delayed by a whole year, because the manufacturer of said uprated freight locomotives (Bombardier) is unable to get their locomotives certified for use on the Belgian part of the high speed line. They're unable to get their ETCS implementation working on the Belgian infrastructure, which is different from the Dutch version.
Bombardier should forget about their ETCS implementation. It only seems to work on the Betuweroute, but on all other ETCS lines it causes problems.

Thalys-sets are happy to run on every ETCS-line in Belgium with their Ansaldo STS implementation. And ICE-3/ICE-T sets function fine with their Alstom installation. All SNCB trains are getting Alstom installations, and seem to work fine with the already active ETCS-lines in Belgium.

Conclusion: Bombardier, just buy your ETCS equipment from Alstom or Ansaldo, put a Bombardier sticker on it and save yourself a lot of troubles (and money).
__________________

Theijs liked this post
btrs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 02:19 AM   #3412
bifhihher
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 41
Likes (Received): 20

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3737 View Post
I Agree.
They should just give the franchise to Arriva.
The Fyra/Benelux + franchise should have had run years ago and still they can't get it to work.
It's a disgrace.

Also no Eurostar after December 2016.



Link
I don't know if that Eurostar would have been viable as it would take 1:40 + 2:00 to reach London from Amsterdam.
Also: all those stations would have had to implement border control (Rotterdam & Amsterdam would probably have been planned, but Antwerp???)
bifhihher no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 03:24 AM   #3413
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Once the shift to HSL will happen for all planned services, a lot of capacity will be gained on the old line between Rotterdam Lombardijen (where HSL branches off) and Dordrecht.

The tracks and platforms layout of Lombardijen suggests that it was built for accommodating also IC services (the current Amsterdam - Vlissingen/Dordrecht services), which could then stop there with no bother to the rest of fast traffic.

Is this actually planned to happen? I think it would be a good addition, since it gives good access to the tram network of all southeastern Rotterdam, which currently is very far from any connection with fast trains.

I imagine a backbone tram line of the SE quadrant, let's say from west of Slinge to Ridderkerk, which would use many tracks already operational and have Lombardijen station exactly in its center (plus touching the metro at Slinge).

Sort of:
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 06:45 AM   #3414
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21258

These services already stop at Blaak
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 08:56 AM   #3415
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Indeed, but that's a completely different part of the city.

Almost 6 km apart, and it's mostly meant to intercept users of A+B+C metro lines, which don't touch SE Rotterdam.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 09:13 AM   #3416
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

It's a pity that no connection was built at Lage Zwaluwe, allowing trains from the high speed line to branch off there to go to Roosendaal. If this connection had been there, it would have benefitted passengers between Zeeland/Roosendaal and Rotterdam.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 10:50 AM   #3417
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,467
Likes (Received): 6169

I doubt it. It's such a short stretch. Even going to Breda you leave the high speed railway pretty quickly after the Moerdijk bridge.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 05:30 PM   #3418
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,367
Likes (Received): 792

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Indeed, but that's a completely different part of the city.

Almost 6 km apart, and it's mostly meant to intercept users of A+B+C metro lines, which don't touch SE Rotterdam.
The old sneltrein Amsterdam-Haarlem-Leiden-Dordrecht-Breda used to stop at Lombardijen, but I believe Lombardijen wasn't used enough to justify the IC-status when they changed the Oude-Lijn timetable in 2011[?].
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 06:25 PM   #3419
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
The old sneltrein Amsterdam-Haarlem-Leiden-Dordrecht-Breda used to stop at Lombardijen, but I believe Lombardijen wasn't used enough to justify the IC-status when they changed the Oude-Lijn timetable in 2011[?].
In a national scheme I see their reasons. But with the final HSL shift, that stretch will become merely regional, so I think the minimum requirements should be lighter.
For a service terminating at Dordrecht, it would make very little difference in final timing.
The Vlissingen IC... oh well, it's basically a stoptrein already, one more stop won't be a big deal Sorry Slagathor


In a larger scheme, it's becoming clear that today NS offers again a third level of service, although not always declared.
IC Directs and Thalys not calling at Sloterdijk, Lelylaan and Blaak; ICE not calling at Amstel; the Den Haag - Venlo not calling at Schiedam and Blaak; the IC Brussel not calling at a lot of stations...

Apart from ICE and Thalys, I think it would be clearer to sell all these fast services under a single label (which could be IC Direct itself), to implement a standardized scheme of served stations.

E.g.: so that if I'm travelling Delft - Blaak I know by default that all IC Directs are not right for me, no matter if they're Brussels or Eindhovens or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
It's a pity that no connection was built at Lage Zwaluwe, allowing trains from the high speed line to branch off there to go to Roosendaal. If this connection had been there, it would have benefitted passengers between Zeeland/Roosendaal and Rotterdam.
I once made some rough comparisons and it turned out the difference was minimal, despite the slightly longer route via Dordrecht. Most of the difference is the stop at Dordrecht itself.
This is probably because between Barendrecht and Lage Zwaluwe trains barely have the space to gain some speed.

Such connection could still be realized with no large works, with the compromise that the northbound Vlissingen - Amsterdam IC would have to cross at grade the Roosendaal-bound traffic.


There's also the problem of Dordrecht losing a lot of connections due to the HSL. The current dual offer of ICs (via Haarlem/Schiphol) seems something worth keeping, but it's true that Zeeland pays the price.

Keeping the current IC, via Den Haag and Dordrecht plus the many stops in Zeeland, and add a new Direct via HSL with much less local stops*?
Could be a solution, but I don't know if there's enough demand (and capacity beyond Roosendaal).

*something like: Vlissingen - Middelburg - Goes - Bergen - Roosendaal - Rotterdam - Schiphol - Amsterdam
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; October 3rd, 2016 at 06:35 PM.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2016, 09:08 PM   #3420
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,467
Likes (Received): 6169

Oh sure, why don't we just do a Sprinter Vlissingen - Groningen. One of those without a fvcking toilet in it.
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium